Full Transcript
And I want to know what were the three times that the three moments that you laughed at most.
SPEAKER_03:
I sometimes I am so so bad at this. So bad at this. Why am I so bad at this? Sometimes.
David:
I want to know. And this is Gate Triox. So Kevin, you know that I have been looking forward to concert plays like from my kid since he was born.
Gavin:
Since before you were a parent.
David:
Literally before I was a parent, I dreamed about like going to the school play. Your kid is the tree in the back, and you’re super proud of him. So we’ve only done one, and that was a couple months ago, it was the spring concert, and he was like, you know, ground leg number four in the back, no lines, just like nobody. Just living out your dreams already. Already, but he had like no lines. I was like, okay. So anyway, living out my dreams, it was great. Well, this past week was the Memorial Day concert. Uh-huh. And he had a big long line. Oh boy. At the end of the show that closed it out. Like it was a big, it was a big solo. So I was really excited. So we get there. We are obviously front row. We are front row. Like counts out.
SPEAKER_03:
Hilarious.
Gavin:
I am just I have a no front row policy in my life. Just entirely in my life. And in terms of, I feel like everybody around me is expecting me to be such a show dad. So I suppose I’m just like catering to them by not giving them what they want. But anyway, please continue in your front rowness.
David:
Yes. So I’m front rowness. They start walking the kids in. Everyone’s excited. You know, cameras are out. They start leading the kindergartners in. And then I see my son, Emm. And I’m like so excited. I wave at him. My husband waves at him. He sees us, and then he immediately turns his head away and will not make eye contact with us at all. Meanwhile, every other child is like big waving to their parents, everyone saying, Hi, honey. He is like putting a fan. He is like an eighth grader in a kindergartner’s body. And then they like line them up and they sit them down for the beginning of the concert. And where they happen to sit my child directly in front of us. Uh-huh. We tap his shoulder, we say, Hi, Emmet. He won’t turn around. He refuses to look at us the whole fucking concert. I’m speechless. And now I’m mad. Now I’m like, well, you know what? Fuck your concert. How about that? How about you take this line of yours and go fuck it up? I don’t care. I was like, I was, I was kind of hurt because I was like, this shouldn’t happen until middle school. You’re not supposed to be embarrassed by me. Yes. And he did his line and he was great. I was, I was sure he was going to be the kid who walked up to the mic and just shot vomit out everywhere. But he was great. And afterwards, we picked him up from school and I was like, hey, buddy. And I was trying not to like shame him. Right. Trying to trying not to make it about you and your snowflaky feelings. But it was totally about me and my snowflaky feelings. And I was like, hey, how you know, what did you think about Papa and I at school today? And he was like, it was cool. I said, because it seemed like you weren’t happy to see us. And he was like, no, I was happy. And you could just the wheels in my head were turning. I was like, fight your ego, David, fight your ego. But I was like, legitimately, like all the other kids were turning around, having to be told by the teachers, no, you can’t go to your parents. My son would not make eye contact with me. So that was my Memorial Day concert with my kindergartner who hates me now. Wow.
Gavin:
I mean, who hates you and also kind of lied to you. Like the wheels in his head were turning to be like, oh, I don’t want my dad to feel bad. But he, yeah.
David:
I was like, either you ignored me at the concert or you were happy to have me here. Which is it? I’m like pressing him up against a wall. I was like, answer the question. So you know what?
Gavin:
We had a lying moment this week that was not cool. Um where uh the the children protecting us, supposedly, and our feelings or whatever. Um, so I don’t know. I actually can’t remember if we have discussed the fact that child protective services should be called on me because of the birthday present that we gave our son, which is essentially a motorcycle. Have we discussed this? No. Okay, well, he wants an e-bike, wanted an e-bike. It was the only thing he wanted. Please don’t get me anything else. I don’t want anything. I don’t want clothes, I don’t want gift cards, I don’t want anything. I just want an e-bike. And we do live in a very hilly area, also note to self. It’s very hilly with blind corners and stuff, and we shouldn’t be letting our career on those channels. But you know what? Hey, he’s he’s 12. He, you know, we did it in the 80s. That that’s he’s had a good run. Do you know what I mean? Like, that can be my defense, right? Yeah, yeah. We did it in the 80s. Anyway, he does always have a helmet. I do trust him. He’s careful. I suppose, you know, you can’t trust the other people. Anyway, point being, he rode to his friend’s house, up and down some hills, up and down some hills, on his on his e-bike, which is a motorcycle. When I think of an e-bike, I think of the delivery, the food delivery people in New York who theoretically have to like at least pedal to get started. I guess I’m thinking of city bikes. You have to pedal to get them started, but you don’t just sit back and pull the throttle, right? Well, this is I apparently those food delivery people are just pull the throttle and that’s it. It is a motorcycle. Well, that’s what we got our kid, and I thought you had to pedal it to do. So I’m an idiot. And um, so he goes to his friend’s house and he comes, they come back in tandem, like one kid, the both kids on the motorcycle. And my partner stopped him and was like, uh, we already discussed this. You can’t ride two kids on the it says on the box, do not do this. Plus, let’s not forget the fact that you are 12. Uh, this is a motorcycle, this is a dangerous thing. You’re on these scary roads, et cetera, et cetera. The way they both, his friend and my son, twisted themselves in knots to be like, oh no, no, um, no, no, no, no. We were taking turns, and one of us would run alongside the bike while the other pedaled it um up and down the hills because we know it’s dangerous. And so, and it was just around the corner at the mailboxes that we that we both hopped on just because we were tired, and you were like it’s adorable to watch them try to lie, and you’re like, you’re so bad at this. You’re so bad at this. This was not a Meryl Streep uh performance whatsoever. So yeah, contorting themselves to lie. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
David:
Anyway, have you ridden that bike yet drunk? Because I feel like that’s something you’re gonna do. You’re gonna have like your box of your nightly box of wine. Of frenzia. Oh, totally. And then you’re just gonna go, you know what? I can do this. I’m still young. And then Gavin’s in the hospital. Um, Gavin, um, I actually have something for you. I have uh what would you do? My God, it’s been so long. Uh how has listener not reached out to us complaining? Every time you sing that, we lose literally a hundred listener every single time. Um, so this is something that I think my husband and I disagree on, and I feel very strongly about, and I I see both sides in the world. So my question is cursing in front of kids. I am a believer that kids should adults should be acts kind of you know within reason, the way they want to act, and kids should learn that adults have words they can say and kids have words they can say. I should be able to curse in front of my child and not and them understand eventually that those are adult words, those are not kid words. And we’ve been a little bit struggling with this because my son is starting to pick up on it, but he’ll go, he’ll say things like, Yeah, Hannah, my daughter, Hannah, you can’t say bad words. Um, only grown-ups can say those words. Words like shit, fuck. I’m like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, but he’s he doesn’t think he’s cursing, he’s just trying to explain to her he’s the learning. Yeah, exactly. So my question to you is, Gavin, in a situation where you want to curse, but your kids are young, what would you do? What would you do?
Gavin:
Uh I have not held back in bad words when appropriate and necessary for the situation. I always feel a little shameful about it. And I don’t think it’s great. I don’t think it’s this is the word I’m gonna use. And what I say to my kids is listen, it’s just not classy. If you’re gonna say for them to curse, or you to curse. Oh, and for me, it’s not classy for me either. You know, as my grandmother said, or this is the excuse that I made up for myself, um, that if you’re if you’re cursing, it’s because you’re too stupid to think of another word to say. Let’s be honest. It’s lazy, it’s sheer laziness, and it’s definitely not classy. Now, I fucking have no class whatsoever.
David:
But I every week I have to check the box that says explicit on this podcast. Every week I check that box on the podcast distributor.
Gavin:
No, uh do you think we’d get in scandalous trouble and get lots of attention and be on the front pages of the New York Post if you unclicked it and then somebody tried to sue us for our bad language?
David:
No, but I have I did have an idea this week about maybe we should do a kid friendly episode because I do know a lot of listeners will listen to this show in the car with their like super young kids who can’t understand it, like you know, two-year-olds. Right. But I bet we have a lot of listener with kids, maybe who they’re like, you know, we’re not gonna listen to this in the car, but maybe we should do like a kid friendly episode. I don’t know what that would be. I think it would be just mostly silence, but um, but that’s an idea. Anyway, so I I you don’t think I should curse in front of my kids.
Gavin:
No, I don’t. I think you should try not to. I think you should try not to. Okay, you’re wrong. It’s okay. Well, Brian’s right. And being able to show some self-control, I think, is a good thing. So self-control is not to say that’s not to say that I have it all the time. Hell no. I mean, I’m the one with the child who said the real meaning of um Christmas was Jesus fucking Christ when she was what, four?
David:
It’s always the shoemaker’s children who go barefoot. You know what I mean?
Gavin:
So um I think having a little decorum is a good thing for you to strive for, you trashy piece of shit. You can take the boy out of Florida, is all I’m going to say. But uh that’s gonna come back up later in the episode. Anyway.
David:
Um, so this this is there’s no reason for me to even start this line of discussion because there’s nothing to follow it. But Pride is next month, everyone. It is May 28th today, and Pride is next month. And I’m sure you guys understand that Gavin and I have worked tirelessly to provide an entire menu of Pride-themed episodes and events and everything.
Gavin:
Um we’ve been really super organized about this.
David:
But I will I will say that we are in talks with some other groups to possibly get this gay dads, gay triarch meetup thing in Manhattan happening, hopefully by the end of the month, uh, by the end of June. Um, it’s probably not gonna happen because we just started talking about it today.
Gavin:
And because the biggest roadblocks are getting a liquor license, but uh for a playground in a public uh venue in Central Park.
David:
Yeah, but just know that we’re trying, and by trying, I mean we discuss it once a week for about 10 seconds.
Gavin:
So that’s but if you have suggestions or if all of you listener um feel really strongly about it, please let us know. And um anybody want to help? Could we get a volunteer to pull something together for a while?
David:
I think what we should just do is just choose a date and time and say we’re gonna meet at this playground in Central Park from 10 to 1 or whatever. Come if you want. And if if it’s just you and I and our kids, then it’s just you and I and our kids. Um all the easier we will not get arrested for having booze in public. I would say No, I think we’re just gonna wrap the booze in some sort of like Kirkland water bottle thing and we’ll just call it a day.
Gavin:
You know, I will say though, a shout out to our friend Peter Lindner Lindner, uh, friend of the pod, who is one of the main volunteers for the Pride March. I mean, that was a celeb, y’all. Remember that back in episode 47 or something? Yeah, yeah. I mean, he really is critical to the Pride March in New York. And he, I will shout out that there is a big rally on the morning of Saturday, the hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Saturday, I believe it’s the 28th. 29th.
David:
Yeah.
Gavin:
No, no, the 28th. Saturday, the 28th. There’s gonna be a big rally, an amazing youth trans rally at the South Street Seaport on that morning. So I do feel like we’re gonna put this out there in the public. I do think that we should be there for that. Uh it would be good.
David:
Seaports so far down. So it might have been. Did they do it in Midtown? I mean, um, no, not Queens. It might as well be fucking Staten Island. Look how close you are. Oh my god. That’s true. That’s um, that is not incorrect. So, listener, we’re gonna try and we’ll see what happens. I don’t know what’s gonna happen. But um, Gavin yelled at me as we were prepping this episode and said, we gotta have a dilf of the week. Just choose somebody. And so I just Googled hot political leaders across the world. And number four was our dilf of the week. Um, and that is Prince, I don’t know how to say this, Amadeo. I mean, that is so Star Wars, you know. Prince Amadeo of Belgium. Um, he is he’s giving me like early Prince William vibes. Like Harry. Yeah. With with the hair, I mean, is on top of it. Prince Harry has been in my spank bank for a decade. That man is so hot. But anyway, um, we’ll probably not post this during the episode, but we’re we’re gonna plan on printing uh posting Prince Amadeo of Belgium. Um, he’s very hot, and that’s our Dilf of the Week. What a what a lame Dilf of the week. I I mean, I don’t think that’s a lame dilf of the week. It’s lame because I was lazy. I just grabbed somebody. I was like, you hope somebody’s in the political scene. We are here.
Gavin:
Yeah, but we are informing people and educating them, and nobody on this pod. Listener did not know who Prince Amadeo of Belgium. Belgium.
David:
So it’s actually Amadeo, Amadeo, Amadeo. That’s a that’s a nice new song. I just can’t keep choosing Ezra Klein and Pete Butodredge because it’s all I want to do. Because those are the only videos I see in my timeline. Anyway, do we have any good news this week? We do have some good news of the week.
Gavin:
I mean, there’s, you know, to counter all of the bullshit news of the week and the bad news and et cetera, et cetera, there’s a couple of good things to mention. Um, God love the French, huh? They have actually erected uh a memorial to gay people who were killed during World War II and during the Holocaust. And so um give it up to the French for remembering what history really was and that there’s bad things.
David:
Is that the statue that’s like it’s like looks like a star on its side? Oh, okay. I saw pictures of that.
Gavin:
Yeah, um, good for them. Thanks, Parisians, and thanks for French people. Um acknowledging wrongs done in the past. And for baguettes. And for delicious French asses. Yes. I mean and smoking? We love smoking. Speaking of smoking and speaking of Florida, then um this I you know what, I’m gonna I’m gonna make a disclaimer. This is not good news, but it is campy news, okay, which kind of means that it’s good news. Okay, but a Florida woman was accused of um assaulting her wife with a tray of cheesy nachos.
David:
I have to admit, every time I see a tray of cheesy nachos, I for sure assault it. So I assault it with my mouth. She was convicted.
Gavin:
Well, uh apparently according to the story, really scintillating stuff, you know that this was out of the Atlantic. She uh it was late at night, and one of them was making a tray of cheesy nachos, which by the way, I have never said cheesy nachos before. So do you think that cheesy nachos is just like tortillas with some shredded cheese in the oven?
David:
I think that’s nachos and cheese, but if you want cheesy, it’s gotta be liquid cheese. I think. Oh, like cheese whiz melted all the more, like liquid. Okay, it’s gotta be more liquid to be cheesy, but if it’s cheese, then it can be shredded cheese. I’m talking about it.
Gavin:
Listen, listener, not the person who called me out for calling this gatriarchy, but listener, the other listener, will you tell us what you think cheesy nachos is? And if so, could you share a recipe?
David:
Anyway, that still goes, it’s still what when I got that message, I was like, I again, it’s the same thing I feel every time somebody emails or texts us. I go, What are you doing listening to this show? Why are you listening to this? It’s it’s it’s uncomfortable for me to think that people are listening to this. Sorry, continue.
Gavin:
Oh, that’s all right. So um so late at night, somebody was making a tray of cheesy nachos. One said to the other, you shouldn’t be doing that because watch your weight, etc. That devolved. One of them was drunk, maybe the both of them were, who knows? One was playing video games. Suddenly they’re all fighting, and apparently she accosted one the one, the accoster accosted the accostee with the nachos on the back of her leggings. The article is that specific. And then had to barricade herself in the room, uh, in another room and call for help. So, anyway, Florida, baby, Florida, Florida cheesy nachos and lesbians.
David:
Oh god. You know what else is super embarrassing and doesn’t involve nachos. What, David? Our top three list.
Gavin:
Gatriarchs, top three list, three, two, one. So this week is my week, and I am staring down summer, like just down the barrel of a gun, thinking, oh god, it’s summer. Oh god, it’s summer. Now, you might recall that last year, after we had our guest Kennedy, who was the um meditating, meditation for assholes. Yes, I thought, you know what, last summer was my summer of meditation because I have been bad for years about kind of wishing away my summer, just in the sense of by default, kind of being like, oh God, it’s just such a pain in the laundry and everything. It’s just such a pain. And then suddenly it comes to August 10th, and I’m like, wait, where did my summer go? So last year was my uh last summer was my summer of meditation. I do feel like I was more in the moment and didn’t wish it away. And yet, here we are. I’m looking at summer thinking, oh God. Oh God, here we go again. Oh God. So I need to air this out so then I’ll get back to being an asshole who meditates and um talk about my uh three things that I need to purge from my negativity, okay?
David:
But can you tell the listener what is our top three list? Sorry. The top three things you’re dreading about summer. For all of our new listener who joined at this episode. No. All right, top three things we are dreading about summer. Go for it.
Gavin:
Okay. Um, so aside from the existential dread, I feel that like by the time you hit July 4th, it’s just all downhill from there, which is a terrible attitude to have about summer. Uh, number three for me, even though it’s frankly my number one thing, is telling my kids to get off their phones. I just am so not looking forward to that. And uh that but it’s so cliche that that would be my first that obviously I just wanted to get it out of the way. Number two, laundry. Just there’s the laundry’s never done. This is it’s endless. The kids try to do it. And that’s different in the summer than it is. Yeah, it’s just different somehow.
David:
Sorry. I don’t mean to poke holes in your top three list. Your top three list is your this is your your your vision.
Gavin:
Number one, swamp ass. I hate having to stand up at a public event and think, oh god, I wore tan shorts today. Please don’t let me have swamp ass. Please don’t let me have swamp ass. Yeah. Um yeah, that’s part of my existential dread. Um now I’ve purged it and hopefully I can be mindful and in the moment.
David:
What about you, David? All right, so uh number three for me is similar to. Number one. Number three for me is when you’re really hot and sweaty and your shirt touches your sweaty back. That like moment where like maybe you sit on a seat and your back and your shirt. Oh god. Oh disgusting. Um number two, straight men wearing espadrills. Oh my god. Do I have to see more fucking straight men? They’re like the little loafers with no socks.
Gavin:
Oh, that’s espadrills are? Yeah. If I see a new. You know, the high heels, but not their wedge. I thought that was what an espadrill is.
David:
I don’t know. But my number two is straight men. Really straight men doing anything, but specifically straight men wearing espadrills. And number one, the thing I’m dreading about summer is pride. We get it. We get it, gaze. You’re proud. You wear rainbows. You’re slutty. We get it. Aretha Franklin, Winnie Houston. We fucking get it. Do we have to have a whole month of this? But yeah, pride. Okay, Mr. Cranky Pants. What is next week’s uh top three list? Um, next week’s top three list is what are the top three Olympic sports for the gay male gays? Love it. Okay, so our guest this week is a writer and former DEI executive focusing on equality and human rights, a Gavin Lodge wet dream. 100%. And now he is a writer writing YA fantasy novels and creating a corner of the literary world that’s just a little bit gayer. I mean, hopefully his books will be banned soon. That’s the ultimate, ultimate compliment. Fingers crossed fingers crossed. All right, please welcome to the show, S.W. Kent.
SPEAKER_02:
Welcome, SW. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Glad to be here.
David:
That cannot be your Christian name. What is your real name? It absolutely is not.
SPEAKER_02:
No, my Christian name is um Alex. Okay. I, you know, every good author needs a good pseudonym, especially when you go into fantasy and SW Kent. A little peek behind the curtain. I’m a big Superman fan, and so Kent came from Clark Kent. It’s also my also my type of man. You know, I like that hot, geeky type of guy. Hot nerd nerds, nerds. That’s right, that’s right. So that’s where that name came from. But you can call me Alex for this podcast.
Gavin:
SW is Superman with Kent, or what is S Name?
SPEAKER_02:
No, SW has its own personal meaning. I kind of keep a little bit close, but it sounded cool.
Gavin:
It sounded cool for the It’s very unique. It’s memorable and unique and sort of hard to say, but in but mem in a memorable kind of way. Now, I’m curious, just with this intro, uh, the fantasy world is already pretty gay, isn’t it?
David:
I actually don’t know anything about the fantasy world. I know nothing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:
Well, so if you look back just even over the last couple of years, you know, I think fantasy is actually one of the genres that we are least representative of. Really? Uh-oh. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it wasn’t too long ago where we were having debates about having black orcs and elves and dwarfs in the Lord of the Rings television show. You had a whole national debate around a black little mermaid, right?
Gavin:
And so Wow, that’s funny because I immediately now I’m not a fantasy person either, so disclaimer. But I think of it as being like hot fairies in tight clothes. That’s and by fairies I mean men who are actually fairies. That wasn’t derogatory. But like, you know, that’s also Gavin’s like favorite folder on Grindr is hot fairies.
David:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:
Right. No. Well, I do think I think we’re misconfusing, you know, a fantasy with queer fetish, or you know, definitely it serves the wet dream, you know, area, but it it doesn’t do yeah, it doesn’t do a lot of favors for especially a younger audience, seeing themselves as the lead character, right? Like we grew up, well, I grew up, I’m gonna date myself, you know, watching He-Man and Dungeons and Dragons, the cartoons. Relatable, relatable, relatable. Uh-huh.
Gavin:
Well, I mean, if you’re considering that part of fantasy, I mean, come on, that was nothing but homoeroticism, right?
SPEAKER_02:
I well, I agree. I mean, look at Prince Adam, you know, in his little page boy haircut and his little pink vest that he wore, you know, kind of strutting around and stuff. Totally. But, you know, during that time period, you didn’t have a lot of queer characters really taking the lead. We were the side joke, we were the supporting character. And the purpose of this book was really to put queer and up front, but really kind of break some of the stereotypes, right? That it didn’t necessarily have to be sexualized. It didn’t have to be like delivering the one-liners, that we could be the warriors, we could be the heroes, right?
David:
So who just happens to be gay. It is interesting that, like, you know, there there is this like assumption that I think David and I have of a world that is supposed to have like no, like the theoretically no rules, then why would a black little mermaid make any fucking difference when people have horns or magic or whatever? But you’re what you’re saying, which I guess makes sense, which is like even in the fantasy world, there are various tropes that when broken, people get all up in arms about.
SPEAKER_02:
Right. Well, you know, if you look at the history of fantasy, a lot of the stuff that we have been presented to during our life is based on a lot of European fantasy. And so we have started to build up in our mind the tropes of, you know, castles and European and white and Nordic and Slavic, you know, kind of characters and princesses, you know, within these categories. And so a lot of what we’re spitting out is the narratives that we’re used to growing up, and so we build a bias to seeing those type of things. And so by inserting diversity, and I agree with you, I mean, fantasy out of all of the genres, it should be like an open field of you know, inserting anything, and anything kind of goes.
David:
Insert joke here. Well, you keep saying inserting, so I appreciate you. This is a Christian podcast. Please don’t say those kind of words. Um, but wait, so so tell us about your book specifically, because I want to know more about that.
SPEAKER_02:
Yeah, um, you know, in one sentence, which I’ve had to learn, you know, these kind of pitches, you know, it’s two generations of witches fighting for the fate of magic. But at the end of the day, it really is a metaphor for a lot of LGBT queer characters kind of journey. You have this character named Burke, who is the main character. He is raised by two women who are the twins of chaos and order in a land that forbids books. And he’s actually the storyteller there. And so one night, after one of his performances, he’s granted this magic book, and it starts to have him start to ask questions. It starts to break an enchantment in his mind. And he sets off on this journey to kind of seek the truth, and he finds out there’s this whole giant world out there that is a lot bigger, a lot scarier, but also a lot more magical than he expected. And I really pulled that from my own roots. I grew up in a very conservative Christian family. Stereotypical father was a preacher, a football coach. Oh, wow. Not a safe environment, right? For a little queer kid in the 80s. And it really kind of mirrored my journey and those like me of stepping out into a world where you feel a little stunted and behind, right? You are given one forced narrative growing up that you the way that you’re supposed to view the world, your purpose has kind of been aligned for you. And then you jump out and you haven’t had the same experiences as other kids in high school, especially growing up when we did. There were not support groups, you weren’t able to take, you know, a guy to prom with you. And so you felt a little bit behind and you were playing catch up with the world once you were able to actually come out.
David:
Yeah. I mean, that’s I feel like that’s why when people come out much later in life in their 30s and 40s, there is this like they have to go back through adolescence again for sure. New queer uh body. And what’s fun, I think, about your what I haven’t read your book yet, but like about your book is like there is this like queer wish fulfillment version of this to where like kids like yourself can read this. And and that’s what I think I I thought you would be such a great guest, is because I do think like uh literature for kids that has their stories in it is so important. And I think we often talk about, especially on this show, is young like kids, like three to five years old, you know, the little board books that we read them, making sure that they’re diverse or they they have gay characters. But then like teens and preteens and people who would consume YA is a whole nother sect that we should be kind of writing for. Totally. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:
Well, and you know, I start off the book with a dedication. This is written for everybody who hasn’t seen themselves represented in a fairy tale. You know, we still haven’t seen two princes in a Disney movie. But the other thing that I really wanted to kind of accomplish with this is, you know, again, and I’m dating myself closer to 50 than I am 40, you know, at this point. I, you know, a lot of the stories we’re first told are these coming out stories that are often very tragic. We saw a lot of trauma growing up. You know, we grew up in the epidemic of AIDS and everything else, and we heard suicide stories, we heard depression stories. I wanted to incorporate a lot of queer joy for younger kids. I didn’t want it to be a thing. There doesn’t need to be homophobia. There is enough in the world to deal with of vices, of lust, of you know, greed, all of that, that a character can go through without having to feel the pressure of homophobia in their lives. And so that’s something I’ve taken out.
Gavin:
Have you always been a big fantasy fan? I mean, did you grow up reading it? And aside from the need for diversity or the representation, but fantasy’s just always been your genre?
SPEAKER_02:
It has. It’s been my escape, but even before that, it started with comic books, to be honest with you. So, you know, again, men in tights and capes and all of that. But that was in my first exposure, she’s popular now because of the movie. She wasn’t popular back when I was reading, but The Scarlet Witch was the first character that I was drawn to in comics because she wore pink and she was a witch. And it was like every queer little boy’s kind of dream, and I thought she was fabulous. And so I knew I always wanted to write a book about witches because of her.
David:
Oh, yeah. So that makes sense. Hey, wait, you said there was no Disney movie with two princes, but what if Aladdin, aka Prince Ali, had a Prince Albert that we didn’t know about? That’s two princes in a Disney movie.
SPEAKER_02:
Yeah, yeah, fair, fair, fair. Okay, so I would like to, I would like, you know, that cut scene where we can figure that out. That would be nice to see. Yeah.
David:
Or uncut scene. We don’t know. Um, so wait, I I want to go back to your other life that you had prior to being a writer, because this is gonna be Gavin, we’re gonna let David Lodge talk for the next four and a half hours. Love it, love it, love it. You worked in the boogeyman space. D E I. Oh my god. What what was the story there? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:
Um, so back to your comment, you know, David, really quickly. I, when I came out, I didn’t come out until I was 30. I was, I was one of those people. And when I came out, I got disowned by my entire family. Knew it was gonna happen, you know. Um so like 30 years of my life was kind of just vanished, you know, overnight. And that is when I made a change in my career and said, you know what, I want to do something so others feel supported, so they don’t feel alone and you know, kind of go through this journey. That’s what got me into diversity, equity, and inclusion. And over the course of almost now 20 years, you know, that’s where I kind of really leaned into. And I started off in the queer space, right? That’s the space that I knew, that’s the journey that I knew. But it very quickly, my very first boss in the diversity space was a black woman, and she was like, Look, I’m not gonna let you touch the queer space for a year. If you’re gonna do this, you really need to understand the narrative of other communities out there. And one of the very first assignments she gave me was she sent me off to um NIA, which was the National African American Insurance Association conference. I was the only white person there. Wow. And although I was used to being an only as a gay man in a room, it’s still an invisible only, right, for us, because we’re white, right? Yeah. This was the first time I was only visibly physically. When I walked into a room, it was obviously you’re an outsider. And my perspective just kind of grew from there. And it was great work. Um, I’m very proud of the work, but it’s also very heavy and very emotionally challenging work. No doubt.
Gavin:
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You went to the conference and you were the one talking about diversity. No, no, no, no, no. Oh, I was just there as a guest. I would have died if I had to speak about punk diversity. I’m pretty sure I could understand that being a rite of passage, but more like a prank. Like a prank from your box. Right, right, right, right. Yeah, being punked and it’s being filmed for TV.
SPEAKER_02:
We’re now calling up the white boy to speak about, you know, I would have experienced. Yeah.
Gavin:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would have kind of paid to see something like that and the horror of it all. But okay.
SPEAKER_02:
But you know, what’s interesting is one of the members of the board at that time, I don’t know if you’re familiar with the comedian Chris Redd from Saturday Night Live, his mother was one of the board members, and she actually became my mentor and a very close friend of mine. So she’s actually the one that kind of really helped me through um kind of the black experience in many, many ways.
Gavin:
And so then, as as a DEI executive, what your job was generally to go in-house and teach about DEI. What was the job?
SPEAKER_02:
Yeah, and you know, thank you for asking that. Because I think there’s a lot of misunderstandings right now, especially in the country. There is a big fear narrative, and it’s coming from both sides of the aisle of what diversity work actually is, what diversity, equity, and inclusion practitioners actually do. There is a lot of in-house work, and I think that is what is the most valuable, and it’s really having conversations, it’s understanding some of the systemic issues that have built up over the years of why we are so dominated by white, straight, cisgender males in our work environment, understanding things like bias and privilege and how that creeps into the different systems that we work with. But you really, from a diversity point of view, you work as a consultant on all levels of a business, whether you are recruiting, whether you are promoting talent, whether you’re talking about the learning and development programs that you have, um, whether you are supporting our affinity network groups, right, that are representing the different communities and understanding what their needs are. So you’re really wearing a lot of different hats. And my background prior to that helped a lot because you have to understand the operations of a business. It, you know, you’re understanding HR, you’ve got to understand laws and policies, you’ve got to understand how to work with nonprofits and community organizations, but you also have to understand how a business makes revenue. This is not this is not activism on the streets. And there is a very definitive line of working within a corporate environment as opposed to I can go out and hold up a billboard, right, on the street and say and shout whatever I want to push a certain narrative. So there’s a lot more kind of politics at the end of the day. Certainly.
David:
Well, I’m ca I’m curious then your point of view, because you are very well read, and I don’t know why you’re on this podcast, but um about how how some of us um leftist liberal folk, woke types, react to things like Target getting rid of their DI initiative, and then we no longer shop at Target. Do you think that is a practical means of activism? Because I think me especially, and I think a lot of people feel this way, we’re like, we feel very helpless in times like this. We’re like, what can I actually do other than write politicians that are aligned with our values checks? And sometimes we see things like, you know, Target doing this. We go, okay, there is an easy thing that I can do that will have a significant effect on the company that hopefully will be a message to them to not be so performative. But then we all kind of think, well, pride is always so performative in all the companies, and we kind of just allow it because we’re like, well, it’s one foot in the door. So I’m curious to like, what is your kind of reaction to our reaction to things like that?
Gavin:
And have you ever put on a um glasses and a hat and a hoodie and gone through the drive-thru at Chick-fil-A on your way to Target and then I haven’t had Chick-fil-A in like 15 years.
David:
But anyway, sorry.
SPEAKER_02:
I have stories for both of those. I think you hit the nail on the head, though. I think people are looking for something to do. And secondly, I do think that it is the easier thing to do. Um and it does have a certain level of impact when you’re talking about retail stores that are brick and mortar like Target, right? We we’ve seen the empty stores, we’ve seen their stock fall down, we’ve seen, you know, um it impact some of their overall revenue. That same strategy, though, is not gonna work for every entity. For example, right now it’s very popular, like, oh, we’re gonna boycott Amazon. Amazon is so big and huge, they don’t have brick and mortar stores. And the sad thing is that Amazon is also supported by a lot of marginal entrepreneurs, right? There are a lot of communities that are out there that their livelihood is dependent on Amazon doing well. So at the end of the day, you’re not actually hurting Amazon, you are hurting, you know, black business owners, queer business owners, Hispanic business owners. And I think that is where you have to really do the research and think about things instead of just kind of jumping into any type of protest that there is on who are you actually penalizing with this? Who gets hurt in the long run?
David:
Yeah, I I hear that. I I hear that. My only pushback is that we can get into this circle of like purity of like you have to do the thing that’s 100% pure before you can do anything. And then we’re all just kind of stifled and muted to a way we don’t do anything. I I totally understand. I write for a TV show that stars Tabitha Brown, and she has an entire line at Target. I mean, half of her income, I’m sure, comes from Target. And so I do realize that me, that Target not doing well makes her not do well. But there is this like, at what point can do I, what is the level of purity that I have to have to be an activist?
SPEAKER_02:
Yeah. I think, you know, and this was my approach to diversity all along. I think where people get afraid of diversity and where we’re seeing some of the rejection and backlash right now is you had even on our side of the aisle some folks that were not experienced diversity and equity practitioners that came in in the last few years and they came in with that mentality of activism on the street. I’m gonna come in and I’m gonna wag my finger and I’m gonna tell you that you’re doing everything wrong. And they used some shame-based tactics and some fear-based tactics. Instead, my approach has always been coming into a room of executives and saying, How can I help you? You know, where are your misunderstandings? And also using, you know, and this is one of the things that Margaret Redd taught me, you know, she’s like, You’re gonna be able to get into rooms that I’m not able to get into. And you have to use your white privilege in that room and call them out and say, Look, I know what it’s like to be a white man. I know that it’s easy to do this. And those were the hard conversations I had. So circling back to your questions, where we make the most impact, and I know it sounds, okay, this is easy, this is small, but it is the smaller steps that we take. It is looking at your circle. Are you having the hard conversations with the people that you interact with on a daily basis, your friends, your family, your coworkers, those that are in your immediate circle? Because change happens mind by mind, right? And behavior by behavior. We can only influence what we can control.
David:
So I mean, I I re that that idea of being the white person in these like uh kind of Spaces that maybe have excluded other people are the most powerful. I feel the same way about straight allyship. I’m like, you guys in the locker room have way more power over allyship than I do. And I remember we had a contractor that was like making racist jokes to me. Like, we’re in this like white space where we can do that. And when I said something to him, you could see his eyes were like, what are you talking about? It’s two white guys. Like we can say this kind of stuff. So it is, it is like it’s so true. It is so much more powerful in those small, kind of isolated spaces to move the needle forward. Can we move off DI and talk about how um, A, you’re very hot and you’re wearing a tight t-shirt. Thank you. Thank you for coming. This was for you. This was for you. Yeah, yes. So everyone should um watch the uh all of our uh visual clips to see how audio. But you had mentioned something to me in the pre-interview, which I thought was really funny, which was like you realized that your largest portion of your fan base is straight white women, which I think is true for Gatriarch. I when I look at the numbers, we don’t get a ton of uh of all of that data, but you can kind of tell like what the messages we get. We get a lot of like single white women who respond. What is it about that? What do you think?
SPEAKER_02:
Yeah, you know, well, I was surprised by it at first. Um, you know, and I was hesitant to join. I had never joined TikTok before, but that is the biggest platform for indie authors. They have this whole community called Book Talk, et cetera. So I went out there and over four months I got 20,000 viewers, mostly middle-aged white women. But what I learned in the book industry right now, what is popular is spice. They love spice. The spicier, the better. And even getting into the young adult arena. And so everybody was asking me when I first got on how much how much spice is this? And are these two guys going to get together? And the more I use hashtags like male, male romance and male male read, the more followers of women that I got. And every time I do like a live stream or I’m answering questions, the questions that get thrown at me are like, so I know it’s like PG 13 now, but do you think as it advances, like it’ll get a little bit more juicier, that it’ll get a little bit more detailed? And I’m like, I’m trying to make this book accessible. Wow. Wow. I’m not gonna ignore sex. We’re of course sexually minded in preteen and teenage years. 100%. But I’m also not gonna talk about jumping down to your knees and pulling down, you know, it’s just it’s it’s not gonna happen. But that’s what they’re looking for.
David:
Yeah, but I mean, you could also That’s my other line of books. I was well, that’s actually that’s what I was gonna say is like if you keep those series isolated, you could have the freedom in an adult fantasy world to maybe write some more queer stuff where there is the pants pulling down and keep the YA stuff to the hardstopper-y, like will they, won’t they, you know, like really, yeah, the tent bidding the tension, but not getting the full release unless you get to the adult books. Well, I do, I do think, like, I, you know, going back to the I think the reason why you’re here is that like I do think there is such a great um opportunity for gay and queer, uh kids, preteens, teens, like right in that area to start reading stories that that mirror the kind of even if they’re not out or whatever, just what’s going on in their head. Like, you know, we are all sexual human beings, but we’re all also imagining like holding hands to the quarterback and all the kind of romantic fantasy scenarios that we’re playing out in our head every day. And to give these kids, this is I think really great. So, what is your advice on getting kids? I mean, I know you’re not a father, but like getting kids interested in reading, because I fucking hate reading. And I don’t know when that started or how that was, but like I want to make sure I cultivate the joy of literacy, unlike the way Gabin does it, where he like screams at his children of the world. And force them. Yeah. Absolutely. But how do we get our kids interested so they can eventually graduate to your books?
SPEAKER_02:
Yeah, I think first and foremost, I think you do want to see yourselves. And I think that’s proven. Like when um the movie Encanto came out, for example, I remember so many parents taking videos of their children that looked like the characters that were so excited and saying, Hey, I see me. Representation really does matter. And so I think that’s important, you know, to kind of put out there. I think the world of audiobooks has really helped, you know, both new and old readers get pulled back in. Um, we’re learning, you know, there is more neurodivergency in the way that we digest books. One of the tactics that I use too is um I like shorter chapters in my books. Not only does it keep people reading and feel like you accomplish something, but you know, particularly when you are younger, it can be daunting if you have this 50-page chapter that introduces so much information. Um and then finally, I think it’s really truly learning what’s important to them, helping to use language that they use. Now, I’m not going to go out and use Slay girl, you know, and you know, some of my you know kind of fantasy novel, but it is using language of remembering what we were feeling back then. And like you said, I think Heartstoppers is a great example. It’s those small touches when you accidentally, you know, the first time you grazed another guy’s hand, you know, the first time that you know you had a crush and what your body was feeling and you’re sweating and palpitating, those are important things to remember as an adult that that’s what you felt back then. We weren’t jaded back then. Everything was magical back then. It’s so true.
David:
Yeah, I will say that like I so I I mentor at a screenwriting uh residency program called Cinestory. And this year, I just got back last week, and uh this year I read a bunch of scripts and I noticed a lot more people writing in this towards this like heartstoppery space where it was like a lot of pilots that take place about like younger queer romance. And I was like, okay, I mean, this is maybe like the kids are all right, kind of a deal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Gavin:
Do you get inspiration from your nieces and nephews? Because you are an uncle, right?
SPEAKER_02:
I do. And in fact, I just did a video this morning. I’m doing a kind of behind-the-scenes character, and this is actually the shirt I’m wearing because of that video.
David:
It’s like an extra small. And you are not an extra small person. I see what you’re doing.
SPEAKER_02:
It’s actually only because I shrink my t-shirts. I see it. I see what you’re doing.
David:
It’s kind of fun. And we are here for it.
SPEAKER_02:
And we’re okay with it. But yes, I have a I have six or seven nephews and nieces, and I have one. Wait, but is it six six or six or is it seven? Don’t put me, don’t put me on the spot. Um, but this is it’s actually my best friend’s daughter, but she is my niece, chosen family, town family. Hell yeah. Um she is she is fierce as all get out. And it goes back to kind of like, you’re not afraid of anything at that point, you know, you are that you’re not jaded by the world, you think anything is possible. And so I wanted to create, you know, characters that were really that unfiltered, right? That like could go out there and say the things that everybody else is thinking because they haven’t learned yet to kind of hold back and they call out what’s happening in a room. So, yes, my my my niece has highly influenced, you know, the way I write this character. Does she read your books? She really does try to read the books. Um, her mom is reading, she’s 10, and I say 13 plus. Yeah. So she’s right on the cusp where she can really start to fully enjoy it. Um but she loves some of the artwork. She loves talking about it. She loves that one of the characters is based off of her hell. So she’ll get there in the next couple of years.
David:
Listen, I I appreciate what you’re saying about oh, it’s so wonderful to have kids that just kind of speak their mind or whatever. I will say that sometimes it goes, it goes beyond. Like this morning, my son was like slapping my belly and he was laughing. I was like, that’s so funny. And he goes, I love the way your belly jiggles. And he meant it, and that’s what was most hurtful.
Gavin:
So okay, Alex, we always like to end our uh podcast with stories from uh the the real rough parts of parenting, where you say, I will never forget the time when. Do you have any times with your nieces or nephews where you think, oh boy, I will never forget the time when I earned my uncle Meriting badge?
SPEAKER_02:
Yeah, um, and in fact, this was actually, I was part of Big Brothers, Big Sisters in Houston. And so there was a uh younger um boy, he was around 10, um, and he went to school and his mother asked me to pick him up. She worked full-time, that’s why I was kind of in the program. She was a single mother. Sure. And um, when I got there, the front desk was waiting with him, and he’s standing on with his head down, you know, kind of looking. I was like, okay, something’s up. And they pull out a picture where he had drawn, like we all had at one point, a rocket. Oh, no. Obviously, it was in the shape of a penis, you know. Yes. And so we got in the car and I knew I had to address it. You know, I knew his mom also needed to address it, and I needed to have that conversation, but I couldn’t just let it slide and be like, haha. So like we kind of got on. And and I sat there in the front seat and I said, So what were you kind of thinking, you know, when you drew this? Kind of walk me through, you know. And he’s like, Oh, I was thinking of space. And I just, you know, luckily, I think I was in that space where I could kind of joke with him and I was like, come on, let’s be serious, let’s be real, you know, like, and I said, It’s okay to be curious about these things. It’s okay to like, you know, kind of, you know, think they’re funny, want to put them on paper and everything. But I said, but there’s also a place to just kind of do that. And I said, if if you have questions, one that’s something you can talk about with me. It’s something you can talk about your mom. But in school, drawing those kind of things, that is, you know, not where you know you kind of want to do that. And so I brought him home, and um, when his mom arrived, I kind of explained and laughed, and she started laughing. She said, Well, he’s actually starting questions. Would you mind having the talk with him? Because I don’t have a man around. Oh. And I was just like, oh my god, this is the child, yeah. The talk. Wow. Okay. So he did, and not even my child. So I feel like I earned my wings as a parent, an uncle, like all of that. So yes, she did. How did the talk go? It you know, it’s the child sits there very uncomfortable, looking down, saying, I just I want to be anywhere else but here.
Gavin:
So yeah. Well, good for you.
David:
Thank you for on behalf of all of us, thank you for doing it. Yes. And Alex, thank you so much for demeaning yourself by being on our stupid little podcast. Everyone, this was a blast. Please go buy his book and uh thank you so much for coming by.
SPEAKER_02:
Thank you, thank you, thank you for having me.
Gavin:
So, something great this week is my kids’ school. Because when I saw a book fall out of my daughter’s backpack earlier this week, I was shocked. I clutched my pearls, I was speechless as I said, uh, are you reading this? Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen? Whoa. I was truly shocked. My daughter reads her go-to right now is basically trashy rom-coms. And I have uh made peace with the fact that just reading is important, obviously. It’s fine, it’s fine. I don’t have to I don’t have to force her to read really boring classics like the original Peter Pan, like my mom made me read, and it was awful. But uh, she was reading Pride and Prejudice. She also, by the way, said it was terrible. And I’m like, I get it.
David:
But are you equating trashy rom-coms with Pride and Prejudice?
Gavin:
Well, the irony being, it has started a discussion all week that frankly Pride and Prejudice is a trashy rom-com from the 1800s, you know? And so I’ve been trying to say, I know that this is really old-fashioned and difficult to read, but trust me, this is just uh who’s gonna wear the blue dress or the pink dress to the party at the week again, and is David gonna be there or is it gonna be Michael and is Michael gonna yada yada yada. So my something great is that my daughter, thank you, Region 18, Canada, is um reading Pride and Prejudice. Wow.
David:
I mean, it just took 15 years of you screaming at her daily to to read.
Gavin:
And then undoubtedly I ruined it for her by saying, No, it’s really good that you’re reading this because it’s a classic.
David:
I like your Gaven in the past voice. Um, so it’s so so funny. We didn’t even plan this. My Something Great is also a book. Oh what? So one of my uh best friends in the entire world, uh the person, one of the people I love, I mean, top three people I love in my life. So and I have two kids and a husband, so you decide where there’s where that number lasts, um, wrote a fucking novel. What? Um with Harper Collins, Blair Underwood, who’s a that’s a famous uh actor, is presenting. It’s like a whole, it’s like a really big deal. Wow. And his book came out a week uh about a week ago from when this podcast is airing. Awesome. And you know, there’s just first of all, he came out here because he was doing press. He was on like the the Today Show, and he was on all the bunch of oh no, it’s legit. And he and he stayed with me. And I mentioned something about our show, the podcast, and he was like, Yeah, I know. And I was like, What do you mean you know? He goes, I listen to the show. And again, I I literally said to him, I said, What? What ew stop it? We really should stop this because we are gonna give people a complex for the company. Okay, I don’t know I don’t mean to give you all those. But anyway, so my friend Joe, he wrote his first novel. It’s a big fucking deal. It’s out there now. It’s called Sins of Survivors. And I it’s just really I think it’s just really so the something great part of it is like when your friends who are also in the arts or any part of their life really do something great, it’s like so fun to be tangentially a part of it by just being their friend and getting to watch them see. And bragging about them. Yeah. It’s like, yeah, my friend wrote a fucking novel. Isn’t that cool? That’s awesome. Um, anyway, so that’s my something great.
Gavin:
And that’s our show. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments, you can email us at gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.
David:
Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast on the internet. David is at David FM VaughnEverywhere, and Gavin is at Gavin Launch on OnlyFans. Please leave us a glowing five star review wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks, and we’ll get swamp ass with you next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.