Full Transcript
What? Babysitters? I was just moving, I was hating. You have literally three things before this, before babysitters.
Gavin:
I know, but we already decided that we were going to move that on because what you have to say is so much funnier and more interesting. And this is Gatriarchs. David and listener, happy new year. It is 2025, y’all. Okay, we’re a couple of days late. We’ll get into that. Excuse later. But this is a new era.
David:
What is this new era for you, David? This new era is us peddling the same hired bullshit year after year, episode after episode, until we lose our one listener.
Gavin:
For the love of it. This is my era of victimhood. It’s not my fault. Yeah. Nothing is my fault. I’m I’m I’m just here and I’m I’m doing my best, but nothing’s ever my fault.
David:
Everyone wants to improve every year. Everyone’s like, what can I change about myself to make myself better? I’m like, no, I’m devolving. I want to get worse and worse and worse.
Gavin:
But better at being your worst self, too, I think. Like just refining your true nature, I would say. We were talking about resolutions with my kids the other day. And I’m like, I’m this is not something I want to push. And especially because, like when my daughter said, I want to, she said something along the lines of, I want to be able to shop smarter. And I’m like, oh, your resolution is to spend more of my money, but just in a smarter way. No, no. I’m nope. I’m a victim. This isn’t my fault.
David:
Anyway. Your victim of the era. I love it. But we do want to apologize to you, listener, because normally, normally we we release our episodes on Wednesdays and we were all ready to go. And uh my entire family, um, my mama’s visiting, my two kids, my husband and me, all just fell into this sickness. We were gross, everyone was everyone had the flu, basically. And um, I was trying to figure out how we all got it, and I think I figured it out. Oh. So we went to Times Square, you’ve heard of it, um, to meet a friend of the show, Allison uh Friedman, who was on our back to school special and her family, and we met them uh in Times Square at a restaurant, and we’re sitting there. And my son likes to put things in his mouth, he likes to chew on straws, he likes to do things, and it’s so frustrating. So we’re sitting there and he is clearly something in his mouth. I said, What is in your mouth? And he like opens his mouth, and I could see it’s the wrapping of the Crayola crayon he was coloring. I said, please spit that out. Right and he does it. I said, Spit it out, take it out of your mouth. And so what he does at a Times Square restaurant, which is is if anybody doesn’t already you might as well be in the New York Subway in a bathroom. He leans down and he licks the table with a look of you, dad. And all of us, all of us, Alice, everyone froze. And I went, oh my god, oh no, oh my god, this is our last day with our son because he just licked the table of a Times Square restaurant. So I’m pretty sure that’s where it came from. But we’re sorry, listener, we are late, but we are back. We’re back on our same bullshit. Uh, we have a really mediocre episode ready for you.
Gavin:
Well, but I do want to know, um, did did you have a good holiday, David? Did Santa bring you everything you could have hoped for?
David:
You know, he did, as I’m sure you are. There’s too many presents, and presents make my kids assholes. Uh it’s the same with screen time. It’s like you think like, oh, you give them more and it’s more exciting. It’s actually it reduced. If you when they were opening their stocking, they were just happy. They were like, oh, look at this little thing. When they got a mound of presents, they became actual monsters. Actual monsters.
Gavin:
I mean, what is the remedy for that, do you think?
David:
Prison.
Gavin:
I don’t know. I do think though, the gift giving is so just so bizarre. Where my partner and I basically we bought each other stuff, and I’m like, you could have just given me money and I would have just gone and gotten my own thing. I should have just written you a check. This is the problem.
David:
We’re grown people who can buy our own popcorn maker. I don’t need you, I don’t need to send you an Amazon link for the popcorn maker I want. Right. And then you buy it and have it sent to me.
Gavin:
Except you did it wrong somehow. Somehow it wasn’t exactly the way I wanted my popcorn maker. Yeah. I mean, my uh I will say that my partner is really good at clever little simple gifts, which is sweet. When he goes all out, then I’m like, oh, I didn’t really want pinstripe on that shirt. I I really thank you, but anyway, gift giving is fucked up.
David:
We should just it is fucked up because we all have the vision of like we bought our kids bikes this year, and we have the vision of like them, them walking down the stairs and like Chris Michael Bublé is playing in the background softly, and they they just scream with glee and they jump on their bikes and they’re running around the neighborhood and everything. It’s never that. It’s never that. Um, and so yes, no, I uh it was a it was a lesson learned that like they were so happy with their tiny little bullshit in the stocking, they didn’t need 40 extra presents to make them actual monsters. So every year we’re gonna try to reduce it.
Gavin:
But I was gonna say this, it’s just a hamster wheel of doing the same thing over and over again. Let’s let’s put a pin in this, come back in a year and see if we made any changes. But as you said, we’re just devolving in our lives anyway, so who cares?
David:
Anyway, who fucking cares? But um, one of the things I want to talk about today, because we haven’t really talked about it before, and I feel like we all do this, so it’s important, is babysitters. Babysitter, okay. You use babysitters or did did you use baby sitters?
Gavin:
I used to, don’t have to. Another level of freedom. Yeah. Now we just let them. Well, now we just know that the babysitter is Netflix and YouTube.
David:
So you could just leave the house and just just go and not go away for six hours?
Gavin:
Yes. And we do it regularly. Don’t worry, you will get there. It will get overnights. Uh what about overnights? We have we no, we have had okay, we’ve had a couple of instances lately. This is so not interesting. Um, or germane to have a lot of people.
David:
Make sure to say it on the first episode of 2025. Yeah.
Gavin:
But we have there have been a couple of times that my partner and I have been both out of town on the same night for work, and we just we send the kids to have sleepovers at friends’ houses. And it horrifies my husband, my partner, that he that we are asking for help. And I’m like, no, no, this is this is tribal, man. We need to what you do. Yes. Um, but you did babysitters back. Yes, we sure did.
David:
And so I was like, oh, there’s some things that I feel like I wanted to know before I started using babysitters that maybe we could talk about. One is what do you pay them? And obviously, like this is somewhat regional, and obviously in the 1400s when you were hiring babysitters, it wasn’t, you know, I think you traded them a bale of hay and a donkey or something. Shillings, yes, and a chicken. Um, but what my rule is that you ask the babysitter when you’re interviewing them or when you ever meet them what they charge. Yeah. And whatever number it’s awkward, but you gotta ask. But whatever number they say is what you pay them. And if the number is too high for you to hire them, then you just don’t hire them. What makes me a little icky is if somebody’s like 20 bucks an hour and you’re like, how about 15? I’m like, you’re you’re negotiating down for the care of your child.
Gavin:
Yeah, I agree with you there. Uh and yeah, if it’s just too expensive, maybe the person’s already in the house. Well, you should have figured out that, figured that out first, but you just don’t hire them again.
David:
So yeah, and and our just for transparency, we live in the obviously in uh just outside New York City. Um, all of our babysitters either ask for or we pay them$23 an hour. I don’t know if that’s average for this area or this, the whatever. So we pay them$23 an hour. The other thing, my question for you is let’s say you’re like, I need a babysitter from 5 to 8 p.m., right? And you book them from 5 to 8 p.m. and you come home at 7 p.m. What do you pay? What do you gave and lodge pay them? Full amount. Full amount.
Gavin:
You don’t you don’t take away money. You what you do is you don’t ever come home. Even if you just sit out in the driveway or at a coffee shop or at a bar it is across the street from your house, you kill an hour, and that is a gift to yourself, by the way. Admittedly, a$23 an hour gift, but you don’t go home early. Wait, have you ever showed up early?
David:
And I mean, uh probably not, but uh but I I feel like it has happened where I’m like, oh, I assume this play would last longer or whatever. Um but I agree, like, like for sure, pay them the full amount. Now, yes, here’s the other thing. You book them from 5 to 8 p.m. But you ask if they can stay later, they say yes. You show up at, let’s say, 8 20 p.m. How much do you pay them?
Gavin:
Time and a half uh I another twenty-three divided by two, carry the one times by six. I don’t think I would go for a full hour, especially if they said that they could stay longer, but I would definitely pay. I wouldn’t totally nickel in dime, I would pay a full half hour.
David:
Like half hour. Yeah, I agree. I think I think once you’re going over paying by half hour, just cut the right. You round up. Exactly. And if you’re close to an hour or right at that 30-minute mark, just pay them the full fucking hour. Yeah. These, especially if you have good ones. We are so lucky. We have two, we have a lot of uh babysitters, but um, or that we’ve used throughout the years, but we have two like our like hardcore like inner circle ones that are just so great and we just love them so much, and they come with ideas and they’re that we trust them. So we had a babysitter.
Gavin:
What’s their background?
David:
Are they teens or no, no, no? These are adults. 50 year olds? Oh, one of them is uh uh we poached from our old daycare, um, and the other one is a friend I’ve known for 20 years, but they’re adults, and and so that brings me actually to the next section of like what do you look for in a babysitter? What are like good qualities of a babysitter other than keep my child alive?
Gavin:
Yeah, right.
David:
That’s number one. To me, the the the for for when we had younger kids is when you have a hard goodbye, right? You’re leaving, they’re screaming, they don’t want you to go, don’t go, daddy, don’t go drinking at the bar, and you’re like, no, Gabin’s meeting me there. I’m right. Gabin’s gonna be there. Um, is that once they’ve calmed down, because you know they always calm down within like two minutes, but you just can’t see even less. Yeah, is that the babysitter sends you like a funny picture of them eating a banana or like playing with a game or something? And so our babysitters are really kind when we have bad uh goodbyes, is that they’ll send us a photo right away, like hanging out watching Frozen or whatever, and we’re just like, okay, they are not dying, they are okay, everything is fine. So I that to me, that’s really important one. Uh-huh.
Gavin:
I’m okay. I appreciate that outreach at that the same time. There’s part of me that’s like out of sight, out of mind. I mean, as unless something is going wrong, you can take cute pictures, that’s fine. I’m just gonna assume that you’re doing a good job. I really, really, really hope though, I’m paying somebody not to just watch TV with my kids. Yeah. I really do hope that they will be active in some way. I mean, listen, if you’re gonna be there for six, let’s say this two and a half hours or less, there better not be screens involved. Once you hit a three hour, a longer mark. I understand everybody needs a break. Everybody needs a break. That’s fine.
David:
But there’s always those babysitters you see when they walk in, they go right for that remote, and you’re like, uh, we have a babysitter that again, we love that comes in usually with a bag of shit. Even if it’s like she’ll go to the dollar store and just get some bullshit, and she’s like, I don’t know, let’s rake sugar like it’s sand in this box. You know what I mean? Like whatever it is. But then that’s like it’s really exciting, especially because I have very young kids. Now, obviously, if you have older kids or teens or whatever, it’s kind of like, you know, just let me look at my iPad. Um but we had uh uh one uh going conversely, things you don’t like in a babysitter. We had a babysitter once who we had uh we’re having dinner about 30 minutes south of here. And as soon as we got there, the second we arrived to our friend’s house, we got a text that said, I don’t feel good, I need to leave. Wait, and so babysitter, obviously. And so I called her. I was like, what’s going on? She’s like, I don’t know. Um, I took some medicine and I don’t feel right and I need to leave. I said, Okay, well, we’re about a half hour away, we’ll start heading in. She’s like, No, no, no, I need to leave. And I was like, baby, you can’t just walk out of the house with my child, my infant in the house. And she’s like, I have to. And I was like, oh my God, what am I gonna do? Luckily, we had a neighbor and I called her and said, Can you just walk in and just stand there so this this girl can leave or whatever? But I was like, okay, I would like to not hire you again because that is terrifying. And did you ever hire that person again? Absolutely not.
unknown:
Are you fucking kidding me?
Gavin:
Um that’s pretty funny though.
David:
That’s and you know what’s weird though. Last thing I was thinking about when I was thinking about babysitters was there aren’t we, I’ve never had a male babysitter. Every time I’ve ever put the call out, every time I’ve been to these babysitter forums, even at daycare, all the daycare teachers, all women.
Gavin:
Why is that? We had lots of boy babysitters. Oh, really? Lots of because we were in the city and we always got in networks of like uh uh actors. And so I don’t know, there were there were a fair amount of, I mean, there was literally like this actors babysitters club that we got into, which was hilarious, and they were all very, very kind, but there were a lot of boys, um, for sure. And they were also, let’s face it, they were actors, so they were creative, um, enthusiastic, really sweet kids. And dead inside. And soon to be not yet dead inside, not yet. They still had hope. They weren’t yet, they still had hope. And um, so that helped. So actually, we had a fair amount of them. Um, and sometimes like buddies of mine, uh like some I had some performer friends who like were frankly out of work once in a while on to be like, uh, hey, uh, could you could you just do me a favor? And they were like, Yeah, sure.
David:
It’s a great, yeah. I mean, it’s a great gig for them. Um, if you listener out there have any like babysitter horror stories, obviously, please DM us, please text us, please reach out to Gavin personally, please show up at his front door, um, which would be really great. We actually had uh we we put the call out for our mailbag episode and you guys came in and I really appreciate it. Oh, yeah. I don’t know if we’re gonna like, I don’t know if we’re gonna do like one episode or if we’re just gonna like drag it out with like little things, but uh thank you guys for for doing that. Um, I actually have a dad hack of the week. Oh, what? Okay, bring it. I can’t believe it. I can’t believe it. Yeah, you have to run the first episode of Twitter.
Gavin:
And you’re supposed to be devolving this year. See, it’s it’s you were just using reverse psychology of yourself.
David:
But I am a hypocrite, which is important. So my dad hack of the week came from my husband via TikTok. And it was when your kid says they can’t do something, like, ugh, I can’t do math, or I can’t ride a bike, or I don’t know how to, you know, whatever the thing is, and they get frustrated and they’re done. My husband is like, makes them add not yet to that. So if they’re like, oh I can’t do math, he’ll say, No, you can’t do math yet. Yet. And that little thing, I mean, we get it as adults, the difference, but it really has changed their point of view on it. And they now say it. They’ll be like, I can’t ride a bike yet. And you can just see in their head that they’re not totally giving up. I don’t know. I was like, oh, that’s actually working.
Gavin:
I think that’s a great one and very simple. And um, and you can like train them to do it. And frankly, we should be doing it ourselves, but yeah, we are nothing if not hypocrites. So why would we do such a thing, huh?
David:
And you know what’s not great and not simple? But definitely hypocritical. Did you get that? Do you want to pick that up or just leave it there? Our top three list. Gatriarchs, top three list, three, two, one. So this week is my list, and it is the top three things that are funnier than they really ever should be.
Gavin:
Um and so I’m so curious to see how you interpret this because I’m afraid I might have misinterpreted it.
David:
Listen, we’re keeping it consistent here in 2025. We misinterpret each other’s top three lists. So, um, and number three for me the word titties. But not T-I-T-T-I-E-S, spelled with Ds. T-I-D-D, I-E-S, T D’s. Something about spelling it that way just brings me such joy. I cannot tell you. Um, yeah, this is real mature, guys. Really, really content. This is we are starting on a high note in 2025. Number two for me, bringing it back to middle school is saying said your mom after anything. It it’s it always works in my friend group. Uh, and number one, the number one funniest thing that doesn’t deserve to be this funny, cats. Cats. They’re just fucking hilarious. Why? There’s no reason, but they are always funny.
Gavin:
Yeah, cat videos. There’s a reason we don’t have dog videos like we do cat videos. Cats are just a little weirder and demonic, but funny. But um, okay.
David:
And dogs belong in those like soldiers returning home from war videos. They don’t belong in like the falls off the platform videos.
unknown:
No.
Gavin:
Alrighty. I uh the okay, things that I I the way I interpreted this is things that I laugh at a little more than I probably should. Yeah. So um, you know, this is my own take. Um, number three for me. No, that’s dumb. That’s uh I can’t even make that one. Okay, I had four written down, so never mind. Number three for me, dad jokes. I uh I appreciate dad jokes, but they’re not, I mean, they’re so dumb.
David:
They’re not funny, but they’re funny. Yeah.
Gavin:
But I’m okay with them. Yeah, yeah. Uh number two for me, New York City subway ads. The clever ones that I’m like, I appreciate that that person was trying so hard to make us giggle, and it did make me giggle.
David:
There is a it is a it is such a nuanced kind of marketing and those like long, skinny things, and they’ll kind of they’re usually like mattress brands, but you’re right. They are really clever about how they use that space.
Gavin:
Yeah, and I I like being able to put my phone down, look up, and be like, ha ha, that was funny. That was good that was funny. Number one, people falling on camera. Like, no, I just live for um uh rockets to go down on the uh on the Radio City uh on on uh the basis parade. Now they never do, honestly. They never do. Well last night, last night we were actually watching a football game. I know what and um but then focusing on the marching bands at um halftime. And I was my kid was like already bored, and I’m like, but wait, wait, wait, wait, watch. When they walk sideways, hopefully one will trip, and then six more will all trip on top of that one because they can’t see where they’re going. Uh nobody fell. But you do gotta love somebody just falling off on while they’re on camera and they just fall off camera.
David:
Well, also, do you you know, in the movie of chorus line at the very, very end when they’re all doing the step kicks and they’re backing the camera out, so you’re seeing the chorus line. You know, if you watch it, one girl stops one count early all the way to the side. It’s all the way to the side, but there’s like one kick left, and then everyone stops, and she for sure stops right before that last kick. I think about her every day. Um, all right. So, what’s our top three list for next week?
Gavin:
All right, since it is still a new year and we can be saying happy new year, frankly, I think through the month of January. Yeah, I want to know about the top three New Year’s resolutions you’ve already given up on. Today’s guest is a friend of both David and me. He has the talent we both want, he has the Broadway career we both want, he has the abs we both want, he has the intelligence we both still want, and being a childless cat lady, maybe with her. Without the cat. He has the freedom we both want. Welcome to the show, therapist Brian Spitolnik. Hi, Brian. Thank you, Kavan. Hi.
David:
First of all, I have the abs Brian has. So relax. I’ve seen them. They’re beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. Beautiful.
Gavin:
Usually we start off our conversations with how have you driven your how have your children driven you bonkers today? But in this case, Brian, how have your parents driven you bonkers already today?
SPEAKER_00:
I love my parents. I get what I call um, oh, what are they? You know, when you get like a hostage note. Um ransom. Ransom, thank you. Like I get like ransom texts from my from my mom. You know, and they’re they’re usually like, call me. You know, and it’s like, oh god, why? What’s wrong?
David:
You know? Like no capitalization, no punctuation, lowercase call me. And somehow it looks like cut-up magazine. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:
It does or have you talked to your brother? Why? What’s wrong? What’s wrong with Mac? You know? That’s how my my mom specifically drives me bonkers.
David:
Punctuation means a lot because call me with no period is somebody’s dead. And I don’t know how to tell you that, right?
Gavin:
Not not for the zoomers and the gen alphas. They have no punctuation, nor can they spell or anything.
SPEAKER_00:
I’ve been told that it’s it’s seen as aggressive if you put punctuation. Aggressive. Aggressive. Like I’ve I’ve had clients tell me, well, so here we go. Um, I’ve had clients tell me that like my texting is a little is a little cold because because I use punctuation and I don’t use emojis with them, you know. Well they’re like, whoa, whoa.
Gavin:
Wow. But at the same time, you need to be a little not cold, but removed. Like you need to have professional, right?
SPEAKER_00:
Yeah. I will I I have been known to respond to client text with lol. I mean, sometimes you have to.
David:
I one time, one time I question marked something that I had sent Gavin like days prior, just to remind him that it was there. He you will he lost his mind. He was like, Why are you mad at me? And why are we in a fight or whatever? And I just I just question marked it.
Gavin:
We gen Xers, man, we uh we don’t have a protocol.
SPEAKER_00:
David, that’s Gen X. That is aggressive. Like, let’s be honest.
David:
I had asked him a question days, days that is you don’t know what it is to produce a podcast with Gavin Lodge.
Gavin:
Anyway, okay, anyway. So, Brian, the quick story on your bio is that we all met doing theater, and now you are a therapist. And I want to know, are you more or less judgmental now than when you were just a bitchy chorus boy?
SPEAKER_00:
Oh my less more or less judgmental. I I am truly less. Um, I’m kinder to myself, much kinder to myself, which is where I would begin any thought about being judgmental. Um, you know, I don’t have to put on a see-through mesh, you know, outfit every day. So that really helps with my kindness to myself. But um you can’t sit with people all day, every day, and hear about their inner world and kind of like explore their inner world with them and not start to understand that oh, everybody is the same. Everybody’s the same inside, even the people that you don’t want to believe are. So, yes, I am I think I am far less judgmental.
David:
But I think also you have a little bit of a head start. We in theater, it’s it if you haven’t ever done professional theater, you don’t understand what it’s like to show up to day one of your job and see your coworkers naked, in a breakup, getting married, going home. Like that, like you, you you guys are intimately close immediately. That’s so good. That probably gave you a head start, I would imagine, on yeah.
SPEAKER_00:
That’s why so many people we know, so many people we know have gone into you know this field. Uh, and there’s a reason for that. It is kind of a natural flow. Sorry, David.
David:
And that was gonna be no, that was gonna be my question is like what what was the reason you went from you were very you’re you are still a very successful performer. What made you kind of want to go this way?
SPEAKER_00:
The there are so many different answers to that, and the shortest version of that is that I saw gay men over 40 in our community, in the Broadway community, killing themselves, either killing themselves with drugs or in alcohol or um you know taking their lives another way in other ways. Um and it scared the shit out of me, you know, kind of looking, being like, what is wait, what what’s gonna happen to me after 40? Um but also it just felt like I, you know, I knew I couldn’t be a dancer my whole life. I knew that that was that had a shelf life. Um and this seemed like where I where I could do some good. That’s that’s that’s the real answer.
David:
Yeah, I yeah, I I just I can’t really I’m not over 40 yet, so I’m not really undersure what that feels like.
Gavin:
Oh he’s and you’re Brian, you we’re not gonna turn this into a therapy session with um with David, I promise.
SPEAKER_00:
But I mean I’m happy to do it, Dave.
Gavin:
Speaking of though, so you’re a therapist, um, which you’re a psych wait, you’re a psychiatrist, right?
SPEAKER_00:
No, a psychiatrist prescribes medication. Um I’m a psychotherapist, which means I you know do like one-on-one in group therapy.
Gavin:
Not okay, so then what is with a psychotherapist? Um, what is the difference between that and a psychic? Or a psycho dumb. Or a psycho.
SPEAKER_04:
I’ll hate your choice. So golly. Okay, okay, okay, move.
David:
Oh my god. Just crystal balls off the interstate.
Gavin:
Well, we know we know that you do not have a uh child, um, but we still wanted to get your perspective because how because of how much uh insights you have about the world, and frankly, we can have who that whoever the fuck we want on our uh podcast. That’s right. What have you observed about gay dads in your life?
SPEAKER_00:
So what’s crazy is I just came from a gay baby shower, just this moment. I just walked in the door. The baby was gay, or that baby is gonna be the gayest baby you’ve ever seen. So I I started asking people at this gay baby shower, what would you want to hear on a on a podcast about gay dads?
Gavin:
Um well, first of all, are you drunk? Because I should certainly hope so. If you were at a gay baby shower, no, sir. And it’s also only 1 p.m. on a Saturday. I A, I hope you’re drunk, and B, I can’t believe you left a gay baby shower to come be on a gay podcast.
SPEAKER_00:
Well, I well, it was the best. I I got to be like, I can’t stay. I have a podcast to do. You know, I have an interview, ladies. I have an interview.
unknown:
Right.
SPEAKER_00:
No, my social battery is about 20 minutes in length anyway. So that was exactly how long I stayed, and that that actually worked quite well for me. Um that’s true. So, um, wait, what was the question?
Gavin:
Well, what what’s your observation of um gay dads from your psychotherapist viewpoint? But then also, what did you find out at the baby shower?
SPEAKER_00:
Yeah. I don’t, I mean, my my my observation of gay dads is that they’re they’re jet dads, like all dads, and they’re um they’re trying to figure out how to keep their identity and keep their individuality while also you know raising children, or also, or maybe just not even trying to, just giving up on you know holding on to their individuality until you know the kids are out of the house. Um I I’ve heard a few things, you know. I have a friend who I think his his kid’s a year and a half old, and he said, Um, because I do this, these like reels on Instagram, he’s like, I need you to do a reel about how having children, um, when you have children as a gay person, you lose your community. And I was like, okay, well, I don’t know anything about that, so I’m not gonna talk about it. But that is something that he has said to me and I’ve asked around, and people have said yes and also no. Um the information I got at this baby shower was um my friend said, I need you to talk about grinder and being a parent. And I said, Okay. Um, and so the information I got, and I you know, please chime in anytime. So this particular couple, they moved um to a new town, um, from a different state to a new town, and they knew nobody, um, gay people or straight people, they knew nobody. So they got on Grindr, and you know, like with a face pick, and we’re you know, we’re we’re like, we’re gay dads, we’re looking for friends, and obviously they then met people, and obviously they also had sex with those people, but they also became friends, and so like they built this whole network by being on Grindr in their tiny little town. Um yeah, so I had a lot of questions about that, you know. Um, like how does this work with the kids? Are you like getting hotel rooms and getting babysitters, or is it just like you’re putting the kids to bed, like the kids are having a sleepover, and turns out the kids are having a sleepover, like they’re all at one house, the kids are going to bed, and the dads are like waiting till they’re asleep and to start, you know, taking off their clothes. And in this particular house, because I asked, okay, what happens? I know when I was a kid, I was always getting up and being like, I have a bad dream all constantly. Right. I did that for too much too long. Um, and they said they train their kids from day one that daddy’s and what daddy and daddy’s room are is off limits. Like they’re not allowed, the kids are know that that is an adult space that they they do not go into, which I’ve never heard of anybody doing that before. Um so but they were thinking, hey, they’re like someday we’re going to want to have sex, and this you know, this is how we’re gonna keep this boundary. So I thought that was pretty brilliant. Yeah, um, please chime in with your own experience.
David:
Yeah, no, well, well, I want to say two things. One on one on that, I think uh when you said like they’re not allowed to go to the bedroom. I totally get that. We we don’t have that with our bedroom, but the basement I’m in now, which is my office and also um uh a guest bedroom we have. We just decided from day one, and a sex judge. You can’t see the eye hooks on the ceiling. Yeah, but but it was always day one. Kids are never allowed to, they’ve never they don’t even know what’s down here. Not because any reason that it is hard to constantly hide and put away and move and lock cabinets, and I take this out and whatever when you have little children, it is mind-numbing. So we were just like, here is a place where I can have my computer and my phone and uh whatever I want just laying out, and I don’t have to worry about a child doing it. The other thing I wanted to say, um uh tangentially related is that is exactly why we started this podcast. But also, what I’m most interested in having you on here for is there is this thing that happens as you get older without children of this impending irrelevance from the gay community, right? We are all very young focused, we’re all very sex focused, and sometimes that changes when you get older, and then you have to disappear from the world for about three years when you become a parent. So these two things happening at the same time, sometimes it’s hard, I think, for gay men to go, well, which is it? Is it because I’m 45 now, or is it because I had kids and my gay friends just kind of abandoned me? But I think it’s actually a trade. I think you trade one kind of life for a new one because the gay dads in my life, some of most of them are still very sexually active, very active in the community, like going out and stuff, but it’s just not the same. It doesn’t look the same. You have to consider different things. So I think it’s just trading one off, but it does in the beginning feel like you’ve been abandoned by your community. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:
I mean, I’m feeling that way um just by switching careers, you know. Like I’m no longer in the Broadway community, whatever that meant. Um, and so I and I do think that has to do with age and career change. So I don’t know, that’s even without having kids. So I can only imagine that that, yeah, that feels like a loss.
Gavin:
You’re definitely forced into a completely different community, and the community expands. I mean, you might lose your old tribe, um, but then you you I mean, you make some random friends on the playground, that’s for sure. And um, and maybe and now maybe uh random friends on grinder too. Grinders should have a setting, like um parents just connecting, do they?
David:
I mean, they they have a like a looking for and you can put yeah, no, I heard I heard that it says looking for, and then you can put like relationships, hookups, whatever. Does anybody read that far? Do you know what I mean? They’re like photo and maybe distance from you. I think that’s where they stop less. That’s where they stop listening.
SPEAKER_00:
Well, but that that’s why I think it’s so great that like um it’s it’s so honest that there are all these different ways that gay men can connect. Like the idea that, like, okay, we’re gonna be friends and we’re gonna talk about gay dad things, but we’re not gonna have sex. And it’s like, well, why? Why? Um, just because if you were straight, you wouldn’t.
David:
But also, gay, I feel like gay community in general, because there’s so few of us in general, we often have dated people we know, and so we are better at becoming friends with people who we’ve had sex with, and it’s okay. Seeing my ex with somebody who I’m a friend with is not as big of a deal to me that I think maybe a straight person. Yeah. I think that’s true. I think that’s true. Um, my my friend who go ahead. No, I was gonna say you’re gonna learn a lot from me today about therapy and I’m here to we’re we’re here to impart actually we brought you here for other reasons than to just hear your perspective.
SPEAKER_00:
Well, I’m I’m thrilled to have your perspective. Honestly, because I I don’t have a lot of clients with kids. Um, but another thing that this person at the um baby shower was saying was that he’s also been actively shamed on Grindr, you know, guys being like, What are you doing on here? You’re a parent, you should be ashamed of it. I mean, you know, like how how why are you exposing your kid to this? And that I think is some internalized homophobia on the part of you know the shamer.
David:
Uh well, it’s also the idea that when you become a parent, you you’re the all other parts of your life should die. You are you are just a parent, and the gold star parents are the ones who are 100% obsessed with their kid nonstop, and that’s just unhealthy and not true.
SPEAKER_00:
So is that still is that true for uh straight dads? I think so.
David:
I think well it’s it’s different for dads because there’s a patriarchy.
Gavin:
Yeah, there would be a double standard there without a doubt. Like it’s a straight dad needing to get his rocks off and and uh straying in some way. That’s another level of the kids aren’t even considered, I don’t think, in a way. But a woman doing that.
David:
She’s abandoned her kids. Totally. Exactly. Yeah.
Gavin:
So just don’t be a woman. That’s the salt. So so you were in Chicago for how many decades? Chicago the musical for those people out there.
SPEAKER_00:
So, including the time we took off for the pandemic, um 15 years. So a decade and a half.
Gavin:
Is that a uh is in the Pantheon of Broadway folks being in shows for a long time, are you uh are you listed on some kind of list? Is that a record?
SPEAKER_00:
Oh, I should be on a list, but no, it’s not a record. I mean, there are um good, bad, and ugly. Um there no, I mean, there are people at the show currently who have been in the show longer than I have. Wow, really? Oh, yeah. Yes, yes, Broadway’s Sharon Moore.
David:
I was just I was literally just gonna bring up Sharon Moore. And I like I will can you tell us a little, tell the people out there who don’t know Sharon Moore is who she is and how she does the show every night. It is it will blow your fucking minds everywhere. Pull over, pull over to the side of the room. Pull over, it really is.
SPEAKER_00:
And there there is there is no doing justice to an explanation of Sharon Moore, but Sharon Moore is she’s an incredible dancer. Um, and you know what, I won’t say her age because that would be that’s that’s her job. Um but she’s older than I am, um, and she’s been doing the show since the show was at the Schubert. So kidding. Yeah, so it’s it’s I mean, at least she’s been there at least 20 years, and she was in the first national tour. So since 1997, she’s been doing Chicago. She’s done other things, she did Fosse on Broadway as well. But she has um, and this is not a secret because there was like an incredible like Emmy winning um docuseries about her. Um she has macular degeneration, so meaning like her eyes are she’s slowly going blind. She’s been slowly going blind for years and years years. So she and I had the same job. She was the female swing, I was one of the male swings. There are two of each. Um she because it’s this particular disease, some days are better than others with with her vision, but she essentially sees outlines of people, outlines of things. Um, and so she knows people by their shape and by their smell and by their sound. Wow and so she is a swing, so a different track whenever she’s on, and she just goes out and she is she is uh a phenomenon. She, I mean, she she blows everyone else out of the water. I mean, everybody else on the show is great too, but she’s incredible. So um anyway, she’s gonna be able to do that.
David:
And also that stage, for those of you who haven’t seen the show, there’s not a lot of room, and there’s a lot of passing each other by, getting into tight formations. It’s non-stop. Not let alone, I know she doesn’t do the the um go to hell kitty slide anymore, but she does everything else. She climbs. She does everything else. She’s just everything else. She she is it is terrifying to be a swing A, but to be a swing with that sort of challenge, it’s she’s she and and on top of that, she’s a gorgeous dancer. Oh, yeah. That’s what I mean.
SPEAKER_00:
She’s the best one of the best dancers ever. She’s so wow.
Gavin:
Oh so that’s our Sharon Moore. So tell us about your speaking of mental health and mentality. How what how was your head in that show for 15 years without I don’t know, fill in the blank?
SPEAKER_00:
It was um joyful and painful and boring and um you know, soul killing and uh enriching. And you know, it was it was absolutely every single thing. You know, I grew up I grew up there. I grew up. I was a child when I started, I was 24 when I started. I left when I was 40. Yeah. I mean, it was like I really I that building saw me through so many breakups and so many life changes, two different master’s degrees. Like I I like I who I was completely changed. So the things I did because I was a swing, I think that that really saved my brain. Um, because I really I took the time to do other things. You know, I was always writing or you know, I was trying to produce movies, or um, like I was always keeping active in the dressing room. So it wasn’t 15 years of sitting backstage and watching Netflix or whatever the equivalent was when I started in 2007, you know.
David:
Um the talk the talkies, I believe is it.
SPEAKER_00:
Wait, wait, what did we do in 2007? Did we have DVDs? Is I guess we already did.
Gavin:
We had we had just Sudoku?
David:
No, we had we had DVDs and laptops because I also remember being backstage and having like my sleeve of DVDs and be like, what am I gonna watch today? You know, Incredibles One. I don’t know. I will say, Brian, I I I’ve known you for like like decades. Like we met when we were what, like 19 or something.
SPEAKER_00:
We you my first job out of school, so 2005.
David:
Oh, 2005. Um, but we’ve known each other for a long time, and I and watching you transition this and doing your TikTok videos, I was like so excited. A lot a lot of our friends have gone on to other careers and it’s all good, but like you have you have found this really beautiful lane of obviously working with gay men, but like you you a lot of your videos will talk about very specific niche things that we all All go through that. I feel like I don’t hear a lot of therapists talk about publicly. And I feel like you’ve created this really great safe space for gay men of a certain age to talk about things like irrelevant or open relationships or STIs or whatever the things are that maybe people are a little scared to dance through. So I’m just this is I’m just fangirling you right now. I’m just fangirling you. I love that you’re doing it. And it’s so good.
SPEAKER_00:
I really appreciate it. And the reason I started doing it was um because I realized all these beautiful, wonderful men were coming into my practice and all saying the same things, um, and all feeling so much shame, you know. I I mean I really I was saying Gabin to you the the other day. Like shame is so much at the core of what we’re working with every single day. Um and by we, I mean me and my clients, but also like us as gay men. Um and it’s all these different ways that shame show up, it’s just depending on who you are. Um, but one of the things, uh one of the ways it shows up is in not talking about all these common experiences we have. Um and that’s I felt like wow, why why is nobody uh talking about this? Maybe I mean maybe other people are. Um, but yeah, I felt really important to have a conversation.
Gavin:
Can you s can you say what the shame emanates from? Or is there a common denominator?
SPEAKER_00:
So the the the the the easy definition of shame, this is kind of Brene Brown territory, is that it’s different from guilt. Guilt is I did something bad and now I feel bad, and shame is I am bad. So gay kids um and kids who kind of fall under that spectrum of LGBTQ grew up different, you know, just being different, different from the people that they were around at school, um, in their house, and just in our bones, we know that being different is scary. Um and being different is kind of separates you from the tribe, the from the tribe. So when you know that, you know, it’s just an instinct, you know, even if you have the best parents in the world, which I did have the best parents in the world, you know, I knew that.
David:
Even though you started this podcast complaining about them.
SPEAKER_00:
Because they hold you hostage with ransom deaths. Right. But that’s expected. Um, you know, I knew that boys were not supposed to dance, and yet all I wanted to do was dance. I knew that boys were not supposed to play with dolls. All I wanted to do was play with dolls. Um, I knew that boys were not supposed to put like turtlenecks on their head and use them as hair and like dance prolab duel.
David:
Yeah, what a unifying experience we all had.
SPEAKER_00:
So, but like, but like how did I know that? You know, I don’t know, except for that we’re like the water we swim in is homophobia and heteronormativity and you know, all of that. So the shame comes from um being like, I have this thing that is different about me, and this thing that is different about me is bad. And so it’s the work, the work, and then and then you grow up, you know, and then like you have the environment that you grow up in, and then you have the your own genetics, and so it always is going to play out how it plays out. Um, there’s not a one size fits all, but it’s um I I haven’t met a gay man who’s like shame-free. I don’t think that there are people who are shame-free, except for uh-huh, unless they’re like really, you know, Dalai Lama.
Gavin:
Dalai Lama.
SPEAKER_00:
Okay. Dalai Lama is probably delusional. Let’s say I was wondering actually, maybe he has to be.
David:
Yeah. But like, you know, that is such a formative time in your life, and that it being gay is such a foundational like who you are part of you, that like being shameful of that is hard to get rid of. I know that like there are times where I just have a chip on my shoulder about shit, and I realize it’s like because I’m attacking heterosexuality and heteronormativity in my head from 30 years ago when it was bad. And now, you know, we hope the kids are all right because the kids, every if you’re not, you know, at least pansexual, you’re nobody as a child now. So it’s kind of like, oh, maybe they’re they’re helping to pick something. But yeah, you’re right. That’s shame. And uh uh starting at that time of your life, oof, that’s a that that can culminate into a lot of different things.
SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, and I and I I’m so curious to see what happens with this generation, you know, as they get older to see how it manifests. Gen Z is already different, but they’re not free of shame. I’ve that that is a that is a myth that that would be really nice if it was true. But they’re not free of shame, they’re not free of um you know gender norms, and they’re not free of the patriarchy.
Gavin:
And that comes down basically with our general systemic uh patriarchy and um homophobia, right?
SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, yeah. It’s I mean, again, it’s the water that we’re swimming in. It’s it’s so it’s so in us, and we are in it, that um that even though they’re they are um able to be like, you know, eleven and queer, um, whatever it means to them at that moment, um, it’s still, yeah, it’s still not normal.
Gavin:
The most um shocking and shameful thing that’s gonna come out of my mouth in this interview is that I actually want to talk about a Pamela Anderson now um and switch from It’s a Fun Friday.
David:
We have exchange we have changed bodies, I don’t know who it’s who.
Gavin:
Go ahead. No, I’m glad that you say Gaylor. I’m glad you I’m glad that you brought all of that up, honestly, and um and we’ll come back to it. But before we stop talking about Chicago, I want to know a couple of things. In the rotating door of stars that come and go, who who is your favorite? Because you know there are that none of them are listening to the podcast, so um filters off who was your favorite?
SPEAKER_00:
I think Christy Brinkley, actually. Um yeah, I I think in the past couple years they’ve had um people who did what Christy did, but Christy came in twice, and she is just she was just so fun, you know, and she was just so warm and so wanted to like be with us. And Chicago, especially for the majority of the time that I was there, it seems like it’s kind of changed now, which is lovely. Um but it was like we all just clock in and clock out, you know, there was not a whole lot of like hanging out.
Gavin:
Um not always, but that was that was the regular, and so a star like that, like even though you know she she’s not a trained actress, and she’s not a trained singer or dancer, um I mean, even if all of them talent, whatever their talent levels may have been, they all have to do the hot honey rag at the end of the show. They sure do, they sure do.
SPEAKER_00:
That original choreography. They don’t all have to do the cartwheel. There is an alternate for the cartwheel. Oh, really? Which is a step hop in passe, yes.
David:
No wait, wait, but does the other actor do that too? Or does one do a cartwheel and the other one do just like a little chasse across the cart?
Gavin:
No, they both do it across the cross. Wow, the cartwheel is the thing that they can get out of. Can’t everybody be no, not everybody can do out of it. Who who was the most surprisingly good in the show?
SPEAKER_00:
Um, oh, Pamela. Pamela Anderson, for sure. Uh-huh.
Gavin:
I remember you texting about her. Really? Or not texting, but uh posting about her. And your love for Pamela Anderson was off the charts. She’s she’s a gay icon.
SPEAKER_00:
She’s a icon. She is, and I kind of had forgotten. Like when she came in, I was like, oh wow. You like you’re flooded by how much in the zeitgeist, in the you guys my words. Yeah, how much in the zeitgeist she was for so much of our lives, you know, how much just part of the fabric. And she came in, and I don’t know what I expected from her. She’s very, she’s very private, um, and she remained very private, but she was so authentically who she was, and she worked so hard. She ran the show every night before the show. Wow. Like with the dance captain on stage, ran through the show. Um, you know, part of that was anxiety and terror. Sure.
Gavin:
Um still, that’s most of it’s also work ethic.
David:
And also, most stars just don’t understand how how taxing Broadway is. They know almost none of them do. Oh, I performed live. I’ve been on the view before.
SPEAKER_00:
You’re like, no, baby, that’s not the I’ve been on the view, and you know what? It was early. It was early.
Gavin:
Also, while you were in the show, um, yeah, we can definitely say objectively, you um you’ve always been a hot man. You were in the show as a hot man. What was your routine to keep those chiseled ads?
SPEAKER_00:
There’s there’s like the messy answer, and then there’s like the you know, fine answer. The messy answer is that like like disordered eating was a really you know, I’m I try to do it. Thank you for making it real. It’s so real. Like I look back and I’m like, oh my god, what was I doing for the majority of that time? Um, but you know, the specter of that see-through shirt just kind of like always off it, you know, just to the side of my vision was very real. And it’s it’s I mean, that’s very specific to me. That’s not the case for all those boys. Um, it’s certainly you know not the case for all the girls, but it’s um that was it for me. I mean, it was it was tough. But I also took really good care of myself. I went to the gym six days a week, always right before the show. Um, I ate healthy most of the time.
Gavin:
Um obsessively healthy, like never ever any carbs and always roast chicken, or it depends.
SPEAKER_00:
I mean, it I mean, sometimes yes, it but like I would kind of go in waves with it, you know. Like there were some years where that was less so, some years where it was more so.
Gavin:
Um did you walk around for 60% of the time thinking, oh my god, I’m so fat?
SPEAKER_00:
You know, there were so few times where I felt like, and now I look the way that I really want to look. You know, so few times. And um, and honestly, those times were usually times where I was it was like Broadway Bear season, which I only did twice, but like it was Broadway Bearish season, and I hadn’t eaten in a month and I was taking hydroxy cut. Do you remember hydroxy cut? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that shit worked. I mean, like I look at the back of those pictures and I’m like, wow, I looked amazing. Also, but you can’t do that.
David:
I was like in my 20s then, you know, and now it can only make left turns, so it’s ruined you. Like, you just really fucked it but like it’s it is funny how we’re all so fucked up on the head about that. Like, I remember when I was doing I was doing a production of West Side Story in Europe and we did like a uh souvenir program or whatever. And I remember at the time being like looking at the photos of the game and being like, Oh, I’m so fat. I hate myself, I was so fat. Why can’t I be skinny? Why are we skinny? If you look at those photos now, it is the skinniest twink you’ve ever seen in your life. Emmaciated. And in my head, I was like, I’m the fattest I’ve ever been.
Gavin:
Oh, yeah. Okay, not your therapy session, David. Sorry, move on. Let’s move on to the game. Okay, yeah. So sometimes in our show, we like to do a little segment called What Would You Do?
David:
Do you know what that’s referring to?
SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, do you get the Yes, I do. Okay. Oh, cabaret, yeah. Yeah.
Gavin:
Well done. So what would you do? So often I’ll pose questions to David about parenting, where you’re in a scenario that something happens and you’re kind of like, I didn’t do the right thing.
SPEAKER_03:
So what would you do?
Gavin:
And also I never knew the song when I brought this up. And so uh so now it’s obviously running good. So because we’re always the best parents before we become parents, not that you’re gonna become a parent, I still want to know how your parenting would be better than ours. So um, so Brian, what would you do?
SPEAKER_00:
I first have to say it, like, I don’t think I don’t agree with this premise at all. I, you know, I I have I have a niece and two nephews, and I see my brother and sister with their kids, and I’m like, just throw them out the window. Like, I don’t know. Well, how are you even coping with this?
Gavin:
That is a legit response.
SPEAKER_00:
My nephew, um, over the summer, we were all together, he asked me to make him cinnamon toast, and he’s really was specific about how to make the cinnamon toast. And so I made him cinnamon toast. I love this kid. Of course I’m gonna make him cinnamon toast. And then he looked at it, he’s like, that’s not right. That’s not the way you didn’t do it right. And I was like, Yeah, the rage that came over me. Oh, the way almost smashed this in his face.
David:
I mean, you want to put him in a wicker basket and put him in the river and just breathe. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_00:
And it was just cinnamon toast, and it was like 10 minutes of my life. It was not my entire life. So I so I really don’t agree with this premise, but listen, we we when you become a parent.
Gavin:
I mean, cut this out, David, but well, you get the the psychology of it all, right? Like when you’re expecting to be a parent, you’re like, I’m never gonna do something like that.
David:
It’s like I could be on Broadway, it’d be easy, and then you go on Broadway. Yeah, I think around the world. Do people actually okay, this do people actually think that? Because I think that’s insane. Yes, all the time. I have so many non-parent people in my life give me advice on why don’t you just do this? And they say it in a way of like, you fucking idiots. Like, yeah, 100%. Yeah, that I would I think it’s very universal too. Just feed your kid healthy food, just don’t give them sugar. Yeah, it’s so easy.
Gavin:
Just hit oh just set limits.
David:
Oh, thanks, Rebecca. Thank you so much for that.
Gavin:
Just put them down and don’t think about it. Yeah, right.
David:
Just put them to put them to bed earlier and then they’ll sleep later.
Gavin:
Oh my god. Okay, right. All right, ready? Yeah, yeah. Okay, dad, a d a gay dad comes to you and a gay dad comes to you and says, Ever since having our child, my husband and I never have sex.
SPEAKER_03:
What would you do?
SPEAKER_00:
As a therapist. Yeah, okay. As a therapist, I would tell him I would tell him to set aside time. I mean, schedule it, wait until the kid’s asleep. Schedule time.
David:
Schedule sex. Okay. Um, a kid comes to you with just hope in their eyes and says, Uncle Brian, I want to be on Broadway someday. How do you explain to a child that art is dead?
SPEAKER_00:
I would say it takes a lot of work, a lot of training. Um, and you know, once you get to be 18, we’ll talk about it and I’ll talk about it then.
Gavin:
Yeah. A kid comes to his dad, makes him lay down on the couch, and says, Tell me about your mother. What would you? I didn’t do that one right. Sorry, sorry. I know, I know, I know. That was bad.
David:
Oh my god. I was literally, I’m reading it, and I was like, I don’t know what this is. Ready? Let me try it again. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:
What do you do?
SPEAKER_00:
Oh. Hold on, that is not a fair question because you have obviously, if you if you have a kid and you’re a gay dad, you have obviously thought about like, when are we going to talk about this or are we going to talk about this?
SPEAKER_03:
So, Brian, Brian, what was not fair?
SPEAKER_00:
This is our show. You don’t get to analyze not fair. We just want to be fair. Stupid answer.
David:
We’re setting you up for failure.
SPEAKER_00:
Okay. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay. Um, I would say, you know, you didn’t have a mother. You came out of this body, and those nine months were the most blessed months of my life.
David:
Wow, listen to that. Okay. Your five-year-old sees your graying hair, and he bursts into tears because he doesn’t want you to die. How do you convince him not to worry because you’re already dead inside?
SPEAKER_00:
I would tell him, um, you know what, I would show him pictures of me with my shirt off in my 20s. Nice. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I would say, you know what, you think, yeah, I’m already gone.
unknown:
Yeah.
Gavin:
A 49-year-old gay dad complains to you that while basically slim, he has never ever achieved having more than 2.5 abs, but he loves Reese’s peanut butter cups.
SPEAKER_03:
What would you do? What’s the question?
SPEAKER_00:
Okay, uh, okay.
David:
Nobody knows. I would tell him.
SPEAKER_00:
Um, yes, yes. Okay. So the question essentially is.
David:
Gavin is asking why he doesn’t have more abs. Why I don’t have abs lens and runs a lot, but he eats a lot of peanut butter cups.
SPEAKER_00:
I would say, Gavin, the basis of our work is learning self-compassion.
Gavin:
That’s bullshit. Anyway, anyway, anyway. All right. I do want to come back to therapy one little bit because I think that you have a perspective that’s important to be able to share. In your personal experience, I know that you had great parents, obviously. Your parents are fantastic. I’ve met them. I love your parents. You could not have had better parents. But raising uh growing up a little gay kid, is there something that they could have done uh that would have helped you be shame slightly less shameful?
David:
And also, what can we as dads do for our probably gay kids? Like, yeah, right.
Gavin:
No, it’s the what this is is it’s about us. Yes.
David:
How can we help our kids? Yeah, how can we how can we shame? Uh I’ll I have I have a five-year-old boy, so I don’t know yet. But like in preparation, I think we all every parent, even if they have an infant, wants to be like, I’m gonna be the best dad who doesn’t shame them, who who lasts them to be. But inevitably shit comes up. So I think Gabin’s question is is you know, using your experiences growing up as a gay man with maybe shame. How do we avoid that or try to avoid that as parents now?
SPEAKER_00:
The thing I think of is um I remember so vividly going to the Toy Store and knowing that I wanted the Gemin the Holograms doll. She’s truly outrageous.
SPEAKER_04:
She’s truly, truly, truly outrageous.
SPEAKER_00:
Um and um and wanting wanting that doll and knowing that I was supposed to want the G.I. Joe. I mean, like it was yesterday, I remember this. And my I saw my mom have this struggle, like she knew that I wasn’t supposed to want the doll. And she didn’t I don’t I don’t even know if it was her embarrassment and her shame or if she just didn’t want me to be shamed like by the cashier or by like the other kids in the store. So there was no there was no doll that day. You know, I then got the doll for Hanukkah, I think. Um but but you know, like I was not in the store when it was bought. Um, and so in that way, you know, I really think that was a moment of my mom trying to shield me from the world, you know. Um I think. Um and what would have been awesome, you know, in the in a perfect world would have been if she was like, You want this doll, let’s get this doll. And if anybody said anything, she came in to you know, say the thing that I couldn’t say for myself, which is like go fuck yourself, you know. And doing it publicly is the is the Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. So uh I think um that’s a hard lesson because again, it’s so drilled into us. Um it’s so drilled into us to hide who we are and to like um think about how well now I’m gonna go off my gay thing, but like think about how often you’re walking down the street and like you are checking to make sure you’re safe. You know, if you’re with your husband or you’re with whoever you’re, you know, you’re like, I’m gay in this space, is that okay? And you see straight people who are so unaware of their surroundings. Do you know any gay person who is just like wandering like this? No. Gay people are hyper-vigilant, and of course that’s a generalization, but it’s is it’s generally true. And it’s because we’re we’re scanning for rejection, we’re scanning for uh danger, and rejection when you’re a kid, uh feels like danger. Did that answer the question? It does, yeah.
David:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Better than Gavin had. Gavin and I posed the question. Better than I. So, Brian, we usually like to end with stories of hellishing, hellish parenting moments. But curious as to when you were a kid, how did you help your parents earn their maritime badge? How how did you fuck everything up for your parents?
SPEAKER_00:
You guys, I I thought about this. I should have asked my parents because imagine this person. As a child, I was a fucking angel. I’m telling you, I really was a good kid. I was quiet and I was like obedient. And that’s why you’re so naughty.
David:
Balance. There’s always balance in the world.
SPEAKER_00:
But I think the hellish thing about me was like I had terrible separation anxiety, like terrible. And um just terrible fear. And like leaving my parents anywhere for the first five or six years of my life was, you know, just like full meltdown. Um, and I think that those experiences, like them dropping me off, oh, especially if it was like a straight activity, like soccer camp.
SPEAKER_04:
Oh god nightmare.
SPEAKER_00:
I I don’t know what I did except for like my entire world like came apart, and I, you know, was a very, I guess, expressive, even though I was such an angel. I was an expressive kid. And so like I was just like so. I don’t know what happened, except for I only had to spend one day at soccer camp, and then my parents let me come home.
David:
Um why do I say that you the story is actually like soccer camp was like Brian can go? Like, like you know what I mean? He’s doing part wheels in the stadium. We’re good, actually.
Gavin:
And that’s that was your first time being a quitter, bringing us exactly when you can quitting everything. When are you gonna quit being a psychotherapist? I wonder just a matter of years, huh?
SPEAKER_04:
I mattered years.
David:
I cannot thank you enough, Brian, for demeaning yourself by being in our stupid little podcast. I if for those of you who don’t follow him, tell people where they can follow you. Yeah. Oh, me, tell people. Not like home from the subway. I mean like publicly.
SPEAKER_00:
Um Instagram at Spotolnic is just my last name. I got that early. Yeah.
David:
We we love you. Your videos are like I said, if you’re a gay man and want to just hear what other gay men are thinking, like follow him. It’s really it’s just great information. It’s just great to know that people are talking about that publicly. And I very much we love you, obviously. We’ve known each other forever, but like thank you again so much for coming. Thank you guys. So, my something great this week is a Netflix special. I, if you are in my inner circle or know me in real life, or honestly, you could probably figure it out by listening to me talk. I love dark humor. I love gallows humor. I love too soon humor, I love those memes that are slightly cringy because they’re too much. Um, and Anthony Jesselneck, who is the king of that comedy, just came out with a new special. It’s called Bone, it’s called Bones and All. All right, it is really fucking funny, and it’s exactly what you want out of his stuff. It’s you never know where it’s coming. The joke always hits you from the side, and it’s always super dark, and I love it. So check it out. Anthony Jesselneck, Bones and All.
Gavin:
Something great for me is that we have a New Year’s tradition of um writing notes to ourselves and sealing them up in an envelope and then opening them the next year on New Year’s Eve. Oh don’t, oh don’t you, oh don’t you live, laugh, love.
David:
Oh, don’t you gather. Let’s gather people.
Gavin:
Well, my kids yesterday, as I was uh, or well, uh whatever the first was, um, uh were like, uh, do we have to? But then I pulled out their letters and they were like ready to write themselves the next year. Admittedly, my son just wrote soccer, soccer, soccer, soccer, soccer. So I’m I’m not sure what he wrote in the next, the upcoming one. But nevertheless, um, it was something great that uh, you know, I my forced family fun here was somewhat appreciated, or there was payoff in the end. And speaking of endings, that’s our show. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments, you can email us at gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.
David:
Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast and on the internet. David is at DavidFM VaughnEverywhere, and Gavin is at GavinLodge at LiveLefLove. Please leave us a glowing five star review wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks, and we’ll gather with you next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.