Full Transcript
All right, let me get to let us get into this.
SPEAKER_01:
So wait, I have a pop star story for you that you’re gonna have to include on the store on the show. Okay.
David:
Should I even bother introing you? I mean, my god, you’re just you’re just you’ve probably.
SPEAKER_01:
Hi, my name, my name is Lorian McKenna, and I love to hear the sound of my voice, and so will you. Here we go. Well, so welcome to Gatriarch.
David:
So, you know how last week I was talking about every fucking day is another day of celebration at the daycare? Endless. Do you know what yesterday was? Oh god, what? National Pancake Day, Gavin. Did you not know this? Oh god. So inevitably, there’s just pancakes and syrup and whipped cream and cookies and all the fucking bullshit. That on top of the fact that this weekend we had um a four-year-old’s birthday to go to at one of the play places that we talked about before. And two things of note happened that I thought were really hilarious. One is the cake was a blue velvet cake. Have you ever heard of blue velvet?
Gavin:
I need to do I need to disentangle something real quick. Whose idea was it to bring Pancake Day into a preschool? Was it the teacher or some oppressive parent with nothing better on their time than to screw up everybody else’s day by filling their children full of high fructose corn syrup?
David:
No, it was a it’s a school thing. Like it was on the calendar. Like national. There’s also National Donut Day and National, you know, there’s yeah, anyway. So we went to this birthday on at this place and they had this blue velvet, which is basically red velvet, which is basically chocolate cake with food coloring in it. Totally. What was hilarious is that we all had this like electric blue cake, and the next day I hear laughing and screaming from the other room, and I go in there and Emmett had taken a green shit, and he was so excited, and he was like, I pooped like the Hulk, I pooped like the Hulk. He was so excited. But anyway, that’s that’s awesome. Something I learned, and maybe you know this and I don’t, and it’s so smart, and I wish I had thought about it. I I’m getting these. I probably know it already. I probably know it already. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, because you’re very smart. Um, I’m getting a lot of these invitations for these three and four-year-old birthday parties, as we do, and a lot of them are like, come to Gavin and David’s party, and it’s two unrelated kids having a co-birthday. And my thoughts had always been well, I guess these two kids’ moms are super close, right? Right. Well, then I went to this birthday this weekend and I was like, this place is pretty kind of cute. I wonder how much it costs. Well, it’s two to three thousand dollars for a three-hour time time frame. And that’s when I realized these parents are just dividing that bill in half. And I went, oh my god, fucking level unlocked for sure for the next birthday. We are co-birthday because it’s the same kids. These kids don’t have friends, they just have classmates that are their friends. So why not? You’re gonna invite the same people, so why don’t we just split the cost down in half? So I think that’s genius, and that is for sure the double birthday is the way to go.
Gavin:
I think that’s an excellent dad hack, I might add, of talking about from uh later in the episode, but uh that is um I agree with that. That’s leveling up, and why not? Because nobody it’s gonna, it’s all of the parties are just the same amount of cake, the same amount of sugar rush, the same amount of tears. It frankly doesn’t matter where you’re doing it, you’re just impressing the other parents. And also, though, in a place like that, was there booze involved for the parents?
David:
No, it was just a regular kid’s place with like pizza and cake.
Gavin:
Well, then the kids don’t know any different. Just have it in somebody’s kitchen and let the parents drink because really it’s that’s the social hour, isn’t it? I mean, come on.
David:
For sure.
Gavin:
Well, so I was reading something recently in the news that there is a new dad caucus in Congress. I don’t know if you’re aware.
David:
If I pronounced that word correctly, is it dad cock?
Gavin:
It is definitely you know what? You can pronounce it however you can wrap your mouth around it.
David:
I think you know how I’m gonna pronounce it.
Gavin:
It’s the dad caucus in Congress. And this is because a bunch of new young dads, or rather new dads with young kids, have uh were just um uh became part of Congress since uh the race in 2022. So this Congressman, this newly elected Congressman, was filmed casting his vote for the new Speaker of the House with his baby in his baby bjorn standing next to um uh AOC. And, you know, he’s very proudly like wiggling the feet of his kid, and he’s like, look at me, I’m a dad in Congress. And I just imagine, first of all, all of the other dads in Congress, who most of them are dads, are probably like, okay, fire down there, cowboy. Not to mention all of the women in the room who must be like, take several seats, motherfucker. Just because you bring your kid in here doesn’t mean you get extra credit for being part of the new dad caucus, but there’s so many elements.
David:
Yes. To be fair, most of the people who are dads in Congress, their kids are in their 40s at this point. So, like, like, come on.
Gavin:
Yeah. And this article, though, it did, there’s so many things to unpack here because yes, I think it’s great. Let’s celebrate parents who are leaders who have taken on this double role. It’s awesome. Also, um, I I mean, dads are hot, and so dads in power in Congress are hot, right?
David:
Automatic two points if you’re a dad. You get two more points, yeah.
Gavin:
Absolutely. And then also, um, but uh and the the the journalist really went into the fact that he it’s such an incredible double standard, but that he gets like shouted at in a positive way when he’s like walking his kid down the street in a stroller, but his wife doesn’t, which is, of course, as we know, inherent misogynistic bullshit. But then also my favorite part of the article was where they showed that the counterside, and let’s face it, there’s only one party that’s in the dad caucus that makes up, you know, the six guys who are part of the new dad caucus, and it’s no Republicans, and showed the counterpoint that, like Senator Josh Hawley, the douchebag of all douchebaggery from Missouri, is like writing books about manhood, how America will be lost without masculinity. And you just think, oh, these poor, insecure men who are part of their own dad caucus, a much smaller caucus, much smaller caucus, clearly. Much smaller caucus. And it’s um, I I don’t know, it’s it’s it’s all sorts of elements. I’m both for it and against it. One, we shouldn’t be um celebrated for just doing our duty as parents, and then at the same time, it’s cool that he showed off his baby in con in Congress. Why not?
David:
Yeah, I mean, listen, uh being a hypocrite is kind of the foundation of Gatriarchs, which brings us to our next topic, which I love. And I want to talk about how judgmental you were about parents and parenting before you had kids, but then how or if that changed when you did have kids. So for me, I assumed that when I was a dad, I would immediately lose all of my parental judgment. I would be the, you know what, now I get it, it’s hard, everyone has their own path or whatever. And what I found was 50% of me did that. 50% of me immediately I immediately have compassion, right? I I I I’m like, you know what? I I I have compassion for these people, it’s really hard. But then I found a new 50% of me, which I didn’t expect, which was I got even more judgmental. More judgmental because now I had boots on the ground experience, and now I knew what was bullshit and what was just being an asshole and what was real. So, like the whole like tired parent thing, and you know, never, you know, taking care of yourself. I’m like that part I became very compassionate about. I’m like, you know, uh parents on their screens, giving their kids screens. I was like, you know what, I’m compassionate about that, I understand that. But the I don’t want to sleep train my kid part of it, I became more judgmental about. Yeah. Because now I had been in the fucking foxhole. I I’m quite I’m curious if that was your experience too, where like after you became a parent, you still maintained some of your fucking judgmental bullshit that you carried over when you weren’t a parent.
Gavin:
Excuse me, my judgmentalness is not bullshit, it’s legit. I mean, come on. Um, I was absolutely judgmental going into it. Um, and that goes in the vein of like, these are the things that I’m never gonna do when I’m a parent, and um and whatnot. Of course, we can all relate to that, but I completely embrace that because I feel like I put a lot of work into doing the okayest job I possibly can as a dad. And those who aren’t even like putting in that effort, I oh yeah, I I my my judgmentalness is probably more vicious now than ever before.
David:
But that’s the only way the human race continues, is that people who aren’t parents think they can do it better. So we all are like, watch me, and then we do it, and we’re like, oh fuck. There are some things that are just harder to do. But it’s it’s just funny how I assumed that once I become a parent, I would have this huge revelation about you can never be judgmental and everybody’s leading their own path, which is true, but also not true.
Gavin:
I I so much of it does come down to putting in the effort too, because we’re all on this massive journey that is so much work and so much more work than we all could have expected. And there’s a difference though between choosing your battles, which sometimes you just choose your battles and you think I’m not gonna do this, and then also just can’t be bothered. And because it’s inconvenient for you, there’s a fair amount, I mean, let’s face it, um, as a parent in New York City, I saw an awful lot of people who just can’t be bothered. So then they it they inherently, or by default, inconvenience all of the lives around them because they can’t be bothered to do X, Y, and Z, which just it’s the hard work you put in now. You put in the hard work now so everything’s easier down the line. That’s for parenting, and that’s uh that’s lessons for your kids as well. And we all are the best parents until we become one, and then we realize we’re just trying to do the okayest job we possibly can.
David:
We’re the okayest parents.
Gavin:
Okay. Oh, I like that. Just okay.
David:
We’ll have merch at some point, and maybe we can have a shirt that says okay.
Gavin:
Man, just putting in that little extra effort will pay off in the long run, I think. Um, so this weekend I uh was very fortunate to do some skiing with my kid, and having grown up in Colorado, that is a sometimes a favorite pastime, and sometimes like, why am I doing this? But anyway, we met up with one of his friends who happened to be up there, and um he he my kid peeled off with his friend and his friend’s mom, and I was like, okay, buddy, I’ll see you later. And he goes, Okay, love you, dad. And he’s he skied away, and I thought, oh, I am so lucky. I am so lucky that my he just reflexively, I don’t think he actually is thinking, I love you, dad. But he does say it every single time he leaves me. And I know it won’t last forever, but it’s really sweet, and I don’t hear other kids doing that. And in fact, one time we were at a soccer game where he ran away from me saying, Okay, love you, dad, bye. And two boys next to him looked at each other and giggled, and I thought, oh, I’m so glad that he didn’t see that. And um, I don’t know that he would care. But my whole br topic in bringing this up is I’m curious how other people say I love you. And I mean literally those words I love you, I don’t mean buying flowers or hand jobs or blowjobs or anything.
David:
That’s how I say I love you. Uh-huh.
Gavin:
Well, as you should. It’s a form of it’s a communication form of love. Yeah.
David:
It’s a mouth hug.
Gavin:
Switching gears here. My mom and I were love you. Not I love you. We just said love you. And I heard a friend of mine years ago um say he, I overheard a bunch of conversations while we were doing a theater gig together. And he was on the phone with his grandparents, who lived actually nearby the gig that we were doing, and he said, Okay, bye. I love you, grandpa. And I remember asking him, saying, Wow, that’s it strikes me that you say I love you. And he said, you know, I realized they weren’t gonna be around for much longer, and I kind of wanted to just be more mature about expressing it. And that really stuck with me. But I think there’s a big difference between saying love you and I love you. And I always try to say I love you to my kids. And it’s um, I don’t know, have you ever thought about that?
David:
Uh you know, I have, and and I thought about it slightly differently. I say I love you to my kids, um, and it’s usually a more intimate thing. Like, like I’ll I’ll be like whispering in the ear of like I love you before bed, that kind of a stuff. But I I thought about it in the way that my relationship with straight men, my and what I mean straight men, like like like best friends, like some of my best, best friends. And you obviously say you love, I feel like our generation and younger broke through the mold of like you’re allowed to say I love you to your friends, it doesn’t mean I want to have sex with you. But I fat I remember thinking when I would say I love you or love you or whatever to my straight male friends that I felt very differently and I and I got nervous if I would say I love you and it would feel more intense than if I just said love you, buddy, right? Love you. And you always you have to have an article at the end of that. Love you and your sucking dick immediately. And and that and and so and I think there’s this weird pressure on straight men to like if like love you, dude, love you, bro, is an acceptable way. But if you say I love you, that’s too intimate and you’re definitely uh going to the gay bars. But totally, but I I find myself trying to fight my uh my weirdness around that to my straight friends because I want to get over because I think that’s stupid. So, but I I I remember thinking like like even recently, some of my best male friends, when I say like I love you, it feels so intense, but I think I am naturally I’m a very kind of loving like person, so it doesn’t sound as crazy to me, but it does feel that I love you feels so much more intense to somebody that’s not your romantic partner. But for my kids, it’s very much like I love you. Um but the the whole like love you bro, love you, bud kind of thing is is hilarious. But it but you know it it means the same thing. I’m just trying to break through some of those like weird kind of cobwebs that exist from generations before us. All right, so this week’s top three is my list, and this week it is top three dad hacks. And when I say dad hacks, I mean small little things that just make a dad’s life easier, not like raise them with kindness, real small things, and I think these are the things that any parent really fucking latches on to. Alright, so I’ll go first. So in number three for me, I I laugh because it sounds crazy until I explain it. Beans. What do you mean by beans? I have two under four, so I am constantly making snacks and lunches and stuff. And one of the things I found from a baby all the way till now three and a half that my kids love is any kind of bean. Literally a can of kidney beans, pour it out, drop a couple on a plate, and they are super in love. They’re like these little mashed potato balls, and they have saved me so many times when it comes to like I don’t know what the fuck to put in my kids’ lunch today. So any literally any kind of bean on the shelf, I literally will buy six to ten cans at a time, and then just that is one of the things they eat, and it has saved me so many times. That’s right. And number two, in second place, packing tape over speakers on toys. So every fucking toy in my house, every fucking toy in my house is too loud, even in the ones that have two settings, like medium and loud, are too fucking loud. So they’re too loud and too fucking loud. Yes. Too fucking loud. And I was saying last week how like they all have a goodbye message. Bye-bye. Um, so put a piece of clear packing tape over the speaker, it cuts the volume in half. It’s fucking fantastic. And in first place, my number one dad hack Same socks. Every kid has the same socks. There’s not a different, there’s not the red socks and the blue socks and the Spider-Man socks and the this socks. You buy one brand and one color of sock, and then matching and finding the socks is never a fucking issue. So right now, my son has black socks, my daughter has white socks, and I never have to question what goes with what it makes laundry a fucking breeze, and there’s never an issue. And I know that sounds maybe some of the uh dads or the guys listening to the podcast right now who are not dads are thinking that’s the stupidest thing in the world, just match socks. It could save your fucking life. So, number one, buy the same sock.
Gavin:
We could all write a book about uh matching socks, that’s for sure. Although I would say I live in a less binary world than you do, and I don’t live in black and white, and luckily both of my kids don’t care about wearing mismatched socks. So we put 50% effort into matching their socks, and actually, thank goodness they’re fine with it, which I think is really fun. Your house sounds like chaos. And I’m okay with it. Um, number three for me is something that I’ve talked about before, and it’s a little on the sentimental side, get over it. I’m gonna talk about it all the time, which is uh playing sports with my kids gets them to talk with me. Having a tween now who doesn’t say a word to me except in single monosyllabic utterances. When we start kicking a soccer ball, if I can convince her, sometimes pay her, to kick a soccer ball with me, which neither of us is particularly good, uh, she does chatter, chatter, chatter, and it uh makes all of my life better.
David:
So sorry about the sentimentality, but you know. It’s probably hard to take uh soccer lessons from you when you call kicking a soccer ball a bot ma. So that’s probably why.
Gavin:
Kick your face, bitch. Kick your face, cooter slam, center stage. Um, this is one that I got from somebody else, so thank you very much, Eric. Um, when you fold clothes, you should st you should lay them t-shirts, shorts, pants, on their side so they’re up. It’s kind of a Marie Kondo thing, so that’s like a file system, so that and you have a conveyor belt so the older stuff that hasn’t been worn slowly moves to the front and you put the newly folded clothes in the back. That maybe that’s something everybody knows and everybody does, but I didn’t know about it until I had kids, and it is a game changer. Now, the drawers are still, frankly, a complete mess, but I love the conveyor belt system that stuff hasn’t been worn gets pushed to the front.
David:
Because what happens is inevitably it’s the same four t-shirts they wear because you wash them and they come right back to the top of the pile.
Gavin:
Yep, 100%. And then finally, my kids are great salad eaters. And the only reason somehow we got them to do this is that one of my favorite kinds of salad is a kale salad with toasted hazelnuts and red onions and olive oil and parmesan cheese. I’ll put it when we have show notes, I’ll put my spectacular recipe, stolen from City Bakery, also, um, yeah, um, on our website when we have that. But my kids always wanted the hazelnuts out of the salad. They just wanted the hazelnuts. I don’t know, uh probably before they were supposed to be eating nuts, but hey, they don’t have allergies. But um, I shouldn’t make light of that, but I don’t know. Put two and two together. Anyway, they wanted to eat all my hazelnuts out of my salad, and I was like, uh-uh, you gotta have a bite of the greens before you get to the hazelnut. And pretty soon we were able to combine the hazelnut and the salad. And um, I mean, I don’t think it matters if you put marshmallows or little bits of mochi ice cream in a salad, but if you can get your kids to eat greens without putting up a fight, I know that’s a big one. So that’s my humble brag, frankly, too.
David:
That’s your number one dad hack.
Gavin:
Hide goodies in salad and make them go bite for bite.
David:
So maybe you’re gonna start an MM salad trend. I mean, that’s I’m that sounds fantastic. That sounds sexy, honestly. Because as we know, MM candies are to be desired sexually, according to Fox News.
Gavin:
So uh coming up next time, this is the top three things I want to hear from you, David, and anybody else who wants to reach out, which is what are the three three the three things you now do that make you say, Oh my god, I sound like my parents. Oh my god, I sound like my mod. Oh my god.
David:
Top three things that make us sound like our parents. Wow, okay. That sounds amazing. Um, okay, so I Our next guest is the real deal if we are talking about piles of garbage. She is one of my best friends for far too long. She’s a writer, a producer, a playwright, a showrunner, a mom, a wife, but mostly she’s a garbage barge. She worked at Pixar for eight years on movies like Brave, Ratatouille Up, The Good Dinosaur, Inside Out. She sold shows to various networks, and she’s helped to create and run Tab Time on YouTube. She is also the co-host of the Screenwriting Live podcast, but today is really her big break. Florian, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for that introduction.
SPEAKER_01:
Um, as a true representative of the garbage barge community, I need to point out what a garbage barge you are, and that I was actually at Pixar for nine and a half years, which is your bio that I barely Googled said eight years. Well, that’s wrong. It’s nine and a half years.
David:
Uh oh. IMDB.
Gavin:
IMDB.
SPEAKER_01:
So do your do your research next time. I don’t even know if I can continue to do the show.
David:
I mean I mean, listen, you are a real pro podcaster. And that I got that wrong. But I love I noticed that you’re not pushing back on the garbage part of this, that you’re fully okay with all of that.
SPEAKER_01:
Oh, I mean, I have an identity to protect here.
David:
So I mean that is that is true. And and honestly, Lorian is our first heterosexual guest, which is big news, big news, episode five. We finally broke. Listen, we’re breaking down walls for you people. I think heterosexuals far too long have not had it. Total in inclusivity with 100%.
SPEAKER_01:
It’s about time you guys had a straight person on the show.
David:
I mean honestly, it’s about time. But to be fair, Lorian was raised by two moms. I was and that’s why she’s here. Yes. So let’s but beyond all the hilarity and all the fun that we’re gonna have today, um you were raised by two moms. Tell us more about that, because that was that was not necessarily the it’s not a simple story, but also this happened in the 70s, which when this was not even a common thing. Right now, if somebody’s raised by two moms, it’s like, yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever. But now you were raised in a very small town in the 70s by two moms. What was that like?
SPEAKER_01:
So I yeah, my mom and my dad were married. The whole traditional marriage, you know, City Hall, San Francisco, getting permission. So my my dad didn’t have parental permission to marry my mom because she was Jewish. So they had to wait until he was 21. Uh, so that’s like where it all started.
David:
And then she became not Jewish? What what like what happened at 21?
SPEAKER_01:
He was 21, so he didn’t need parental consent anymore to marry someone. Oh, god. I I don’t know, whatever. This is the story. It’s probably all lies. Lies that I was told. I mean, who knows? So um my I was born, my sister was born three and a half years later. Then we moved uh to this very small, cozy little town that’s kind of like if Stephen King and Buffy the Vampire Slayer had a baby, it’d be this town. Um, so uh yeah, it’s called Ukaya, California, and there was about 15,000 people there. So then um when I was about five or six, my dad uh left, he fucked off and got together with some 19-year-old uh cashier at the Roundtable Pizza where he worked. Very glamorous love story. Um and then my mom started dating women, one of which I remember really well. Her name was Sandy, and um she was a wood shop teacher, and she only had three fingers on one hand. So I have this distinct memory of me on my um uh living room floor playing with Lincoln logs, and Sandy came over and like she reached out to me, and all I saw was like a nubby fingers coming at me. And no disrespect to people who are differently abled and have different caveat, caveat. But when you’re six years old, innocently playing with Lincoln logs, and you meet your mom’s lover.
David:
And a three-fingered lesbian attacks you.
SPEAKER_01:
Yes, and she had like short curly red hair, overalls, like the whole cliche, right? I lived.
David:
Shop teacher. Shop teacher. Total shop teacher. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:
She was a shop teacher and she had missing fingers. So um I don’t remember many other So she wasn’t a great shop teacher. Obviously. There were some issues. I don’t I would yeah. Anyway, uh I had a blanket I slept under for very, very, very many, many. Also, I’m a writer, so I know how to use words right. I had this blanket I used on my bed that I loved until one day when I was a teenager, my mom reminded me that Sandy made it for me. And I had to never look at it again because I was re-traumatized.
David:
You just kept seeing those fingers weaving in and out.
SPEAKER_01:
But then um at some point my mom got together with Elaine. I think I must have been eight or nine, and so this was like the late 70s, and um I uh it and uh so she moved in with us because, you know. Lesbians.
Gavin:
Insert joke here. Yeah. Because lesbians.
SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, and then um, but my mom was also they were also hippies, and uh so that was a whole other part of it. Uh, you know, we lived on this tr street called Church Street, and they all called themselves the Church Street Irregulars, and I it was all a lot of pot and drugs and was it a lot of communal living? No, it wasn’t communal living, but it was there were communal Cow Mountain had a big commune. I went to a hippie school called Mariposa School. You know, it was like hippie, lesbian counterculture, everyone grew pot, you know. It was not a safe childhood. I wouldn’t describe it.
Gavin:
But here you are. I mean it’s the right David and I have talked about my favorite tweet I ever saw is parenting looks so hard because you have to traumatize your kids just enough for them to end up funny. And I mean it looks like you’re the result of that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:
I mean Yeah, sure. My sister isn’t that funny, and she was just as traumatized, so I don’t know if you’re furious.
Gavin:
Wait.
SPEAKER_01:
Uh maybe it’s just the firstborn. The firstborn.
Gavin:
Did your mom have to come out to you, or did she just suddenly uh live with women and you were like, okay, now mommy likes girls?
SPEAKER_01:
I have no memory of it. I just remember Sandy. I just remember the Sandy incident. In LinkedIn. I don’t remember it being that interesting. I wasn’t sad when my dad left. Like they fought all the time. I was like, yeah, he’s gotta go. Um also, you know, when you’re a kid of trauma and you also have undiagnosed ADD and you might be going through menopause, memories aren’t that uh aren’t uh like super available to me. So I don’t know.
David:
But also I feel like that uh that that culture of like our parents like talking about things and getting ahead of emotions was not on their radar. That like it was not a like, you know what, we’re gonna uh there’s a big change in mommy’s life and we’re gonna talk about it. It’s like none of that happened. It was like just yeah.
SPEAKER_01:
No. And you know, Elaine lived with us, uh, and they didn’t they were together until I was in my early 20s, and I told no one. It was a huge, huge, very dangerous, scary secret. Elaine worked for the school district. Oh wow. So if anyone found out, she would be fired. And you know, so it was like she was our roommate. You know, I I I know my friends must have figured it out, but I never talked about it. Ever.
David:
Well, people forget that like that those laws are still on the books in 28 states that you can still be fired for being gay or being thought of as gay.
SPEAKER_01:
And and and and so obviously it was a little more imperative than to keep the secret, but um I mean the good news is is I’m pitching a TV show right now, and that is the core story about it, is what I start the pitch with, which is my moms were gay, and it was a huge secret, and so that’s why I can write this show about having a secret and living in shame.
unknown:
Ta-da!
SPEAKER_01:
So I mean, I will use it. Um it was hard, you know. We were poor. So it wasn’t like being raised by gay parents was some gift. It was still, you know, I I would love to say that, you know, all you gays are so great. But you you know, my moms were regular people with their own shit.
SPEAKER_00:
Totally.
David:
And um well, it’s the ultimate equality is that gays can be nightmares too. We can have our own shitty uh th yeah, exactly. But it’s so I’m curious how much of your parents’ lives or how much of being raised by two women makes its way into your work? Now I know you and very personally, and I’ve read and known most about your work, but I’m curious just to like people who are listening, does having two moms make its way into your work often? Or is it more about the the the town you grew up in and the hippie commune style?
SPEAKER_01:
I think there’s a big theme of shame that runs through my life and through my work because it’s battling that. I I had this fear that one day I would wake up gay. Because that was how I experienced it, I guess. To answer your earlier question, it just happened for me. So and I th when I first started dating my husband, I remember like it was a big deal. Like I had to come out to him that my moms were gay. He gave no shits, none. He was like, okay, so he’s like, I knew I met her, like at the end, full stop. But um uh I also was really worried on my the night before my wedding that I would wake up and not want to marry him. You know, I had friends who’d like, I’d woken up that morning and I didn’t want to marry him and I did it anyway, so I hadn’t written my vows yet. But also there was a piece of me that was like, you know, also I was 29, I’d had lots of sex. I had never experimented with women. Like I had never wanted to experiment with women. That wasn’t a part, perhaps I should have. I don’t know, but I was so anxious and intense and sexually repressed, which David makes fun of me all the time because I’m always like, ew, sex, gross, because that was such a huge part of uh shame for me. Also, my mom made me see purple rain with her when I was 15. So, like, if you’ve seen purple rain, your older audience is very uncomfortable realizing what that means.
David:
I don’t even know what you’re referencing. I’m so young.
Gavin:
Why does parenting suck?
SPEAKER_01:
So, for example, this morning I was on a walk with my daughter, walking my dog, and she said, Why isn’t any laundry getting done?
SPEAKER_02:
Whoa.
SPEAKER_01:
She’s 11. And I’m like, uh, sweetheart, you know how to do your laundry. You can do your laundry. Also, let’s talk about passive aggression, right? Like it’s just let’s because you know, she’ll just do the like, I’m hungry. I’m like, that’s passive aggressive. Can I have something to eat? Or would you make me something to eat? Is how you actually are supposed to act for that, ask for that stuff. Um parenting, well, number one, pregnancy is terrible, birth is disgusting. Um the wreckage done to my body uh is really foul. Um earlier I was telling you guys that if I cough, I’m probably gonna fart and pee a little. So that’s why myself, yes, that’s why I keep muting myself because I’m coughing. I’m also peeing a little. I just want you to know every time I go on mute, everyone’s listening.
David:
Everything below your waist right now is uh is pure chaos and a nightmare. So that’s why the camera is worse.
SPEAKER_01:
I have just a little kiddie pool. I’m sitting in a little kiddie pool with like baby wipes right next to me. Um parenting is really hard. I think for me, um, the expectations of being a mom, because I did not have brilliant motherhood, I will say. My just so you know, my mom will find this podcast and she’ll listen to it. Yeah. Like somehow she will. So, like, hi mom. Hi. Uh yeah. Um, I uh was very worried about becoming a parent. I waited a very long time. I didn’t have my daughter till I was 41. Good for you. And yeah, sure, that was easy. Um it’s called a geriatric pregnancy. Yeah. That’s fun. Yeah, old lady style.
Gavin:
Oh, it’s tur the terminology, but hey, you’ve got a beautiful, passive-aggressive daughter now. I know.
David:
And she’s gonna give you a low rating on Yelp, clearly, because the housekeeping is not up to snuff. I mean, the the the dining room is never open when she needs it to be.
SPEAKER_01:
No, yeah, no. It was I was really surprised that she’d phrased it that way, and I realized just how accommodating my husband is, like how how regularly he does the laundry, how up, how he like he just keeps up on some things, and I guess, you know, he just hasn’t. And oh, because you know, my husband does the laundry. I don’t I don’t laundry.
SPEAKER_00:
I did it today just to avoid, you know, passive aggression from my child when she gets over from school.
SPEAKER_01:
I think parenting is hard, especially uh as a writer because I’m home. So she’s just always here. The pandemic was miserable. My husband and my daughter and I were just always home all the time.
David:
No break.
SPEAKER_01:
No break.
David:
No breaks.
SPEAKER_01:
And uh, and you know, I my daughter was I talk about this all the time, it’s so boring, but my daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes about a year ago, and which is, you know, it whatever, we’re managing it. It’s a hellscape, but we’re managing it. And then she had an ultrasound done recently on her thyroid because she’s got some thyroid issues, so she probably has something called Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, which is an autoimmune disease that often walks along with type one, but she’s also got some other really scary stuff going on that I can’t talk about without crying. But it’s like, why? Why? Why did I invite this person into my life that would bring me like opportunity? I had to cancel a pitch yesterday. I was so messy about it. Like, why? What is the payoff? Where’s the part where you’re like, it’s worth it?
David:
There’s never a moment in parenting. We talked about this a couple episodes ago. There’s never a moment in parenting when you go, okay, we got here. Now we can just sit back and cuddle and watch TV together and everything’s happy. There’s always a new level of bullshit. And every time you satisfy one level of bullshit, you just upgrade to the next level of bullshit.
Gavin:
Do you what level of her passive aggression um did she get from you? I mean, or d or are you just direct? And that was not a that was not a slight, that was a oh god, is this a realization that this is the way I’ve been speaking to her? Because my my passive aggression, my own, comes back to me constantly through my 11-year-old daughter.
SPEAKER_01:
Oh. Yeah, I don’t think I’m passive aggressive, but what I do notice is that she will talk to my husband in the same tone of voice that I talked to him in. And when she does it, I’m like, Quincy, do not talk to your father that way. That is disrespect Oh. Oh.
David:
Children are ugly mirrors. They are just ugly mirrors, and sometimes, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:
So I just realized like everything I’m doing, she’s she copies. It’s you know, it’s horrible.
Gavin:
But does it give you good content for your writing?
SPEAKER_01:
Yes. I mean, the other piece of this project I’m pitching about gay moms, all the end of it is about her diabetes, right? Shame, you know, so it’s like right there, the book ends. I got it. Nice, right? My kid and my parenting. Sometimes, you know, my husband is ill, so I use his stuff too. I mean, being a writer, you just you use it all. Otherwise, what’s the point?
David:
Do you notice a difference in the way in the world that your daughter’s being raised in, where kind of if you decided to just be gay, you know, if you wake up gay, which is a real possibility, Lori and I hope you understand that. Where it would it would be very different for her than it was for you. Like, is the world that she’s growing up where gay and bi and trans is is just another uh part of full human beings.
SPEAKER_01:
It’s totally uninteresting to her. Yeah, you know, we’ve always talked to her about if you like a boy or a girl, and she’ll say, or they. I’m like, yes, Quincy, or they. You know, I’ve talked to her a lot about, you know, uh gender uh and pronouns. Uh for a while, my nep my at the time, my sister’s youngest, came out as non-binary, so they were they, has recently decided to be he again. And that was for her, it was like, all right, I don’t care. She defaults to they if she doesn’t know. And you know, because the default is he. Like uh, you see a picture of a giraffe, that’s a he. She’ll say they. She corrects me all the time. It’s delightful. But she does not, she does not care. Her babysitter over the pandemic, you know, on Zoom, uh, was uh trans woman and she had no idea, wasn’t curious, is it wasn’t interested. Later, I talked about my friend who had a trans daughter, and she’s like, Who? And I told her, and she was like, What?
David:
Like she just doesn’t it’s so amazing because it doesn’t, you know why? Because for for your daughter, it doesn’t feel like it like change or something like that, like uh uh your your nephew be uh going from they to he pronouns doesn’t feel like a personal attack to her. She’s like, okay, it’s just a it and I feel like people our age and maybe even older feel like all all of anything that is a change is a personal attack to how they feel or how they were raised. And it’s so kind of refreshing to see kids kind of be like, yeah, no big deal. And it’s like, oh man, to have grown up in the world where like if you’re gay or you’re bi or you’re trans, like, okay, anyway, let’s go get milkshakes.
SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. I remember it was a lot of uh for me how I grew up too, right? I remember when I finally did start talking about it, the first question I would get asked, which is, well, which one’s the man? I’m like, well, they’re both women. For me, that’s the problem, right? Like, that’s the core of my drama. Like, if one was a man, I wouldn’t have this secret shame of having to come out to you as having gay moms, you know. Of course, I don’t think it’s a problem, whatever. They can do whatever they want. You know, one of my moms now is married to a man and has a whole set of other stepkids, and you know, like, I don’t know, I don’t care. People can do whatever they want.
David:
It’s one of our favorite questions. We got we talked about it a couple episodes ago where when when people be like, Well, which one of you is the woman? And it’s like that that’s kind of the core part of being gay. It’s kind of a foundational aspect of homosexuality is that there’s no man or there’s no woman. I like to ask straight people which one of you is the man and which one of you is the other man.
SPEAKER_01:
Well, I think uh the gender roles thing is really toxic, right? Like how I’ve just, you know, I was raised by women and a big, strong lesbian community. I speak my mind, I’m not shy, I have big loud opinions that piss people off. Uh, but I’ve fallen into all the stereotypical gender roles of uh being the one who cares about the house cleaning, being the one who’s like, you know, just all the stuff. Uh, because my husband and I never really talked about it or negotiated it. And um, when I started working from home, I stopped doing the dishes. I just stopped doing the dishes, so someone had to do them, so he did them. I didn’t even come up to him and say that’s my level of passive aggression. I just stopped. He does the trash, he does, you know, some of this stuff I wasn’t enculturated or even taught to do, which is no excuse.
David:
But we talked about that a couple weeks ago, and and the reason I think is that you there is a default that you can always fall back. There are existing lanes that you don’t have to choose, but for straight people, there is a default setting that if you guys don’t say anything, sometimes you fall back into, which is that patriarchal, like women do the laundry and men make the money, and the um, and and we we had a conversation earlier about with gay people, those settings don’t exist, those defaults don’t exist. So we have to verbalize everything. We have to say who’s doing the dishes, who’s picking up the kids, and and and naturally who is the more caretaker one, who is the whatever. Um, but but that that is a trap that we luckily don’t often fall into as gay people.
SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, and when I when before Quincy was born, I uh I had this very clear like her room is gonna be purple and yellow, I’m not gonna do pink. I told everyone, don’t buy me pink clothes. I said, Don’t we’re not gonna do Disney princesses, the whole thing. Somewhere though, my kid saw a Disney princess dress and for years was obsessed that there was nothing I could do about it, and I was so dismayed. Like, why don’t you like trucks? And she didn’t care. She did not want a truck. She didn’t want those stupid wooden toys. She was like, I want plastic, princess, dresses, bobbleheads, Disney, the whole thing. And I I did not lead her there. I had I had no interest in that stuff. And yet, you know, we have a box in the attic full of like every princess dress ever made.
Gavin:
You still have them.
SPEAKER_01:
Yeah, I don’t know what to do with them. What do you do with them?
Gavin:
But all those tiaras and kitten heels?
SPEAKER_01:
Oh, yeah. She’s into blue and green and dinosaurs and you know, she still likes to dress up, but she’s very much shifted now into, you know, she’s gonna be a director and a paleontologist, just so you guys know.
Gavin:
She’s I mean I’m aware. No, she’s got a plan. That’s fantastic.
SPEAKER_01:
Well So you have a daughter, Gavin?
Gavin:
Yes, I do.
SPEAKER_01:
She’s 11, same age.
Gavin:
Exactly the same age. And we were gonna be anti-Disney, of course. And then um the gateway drug, even though it preceded her even birth, I think, but the gateway drug was frozen, and she discovered frozen, and then we we went through um years of every all of it. And then at some point I was like, fine, let’s do it. We did it, and then she moved on, you know, she moved on to the next thing. I think unfortunately, the next thing back then was um shimmer and shine. Do you remember?
SPEAKER_01:
Oh, deeply into shimmer and shine. Oh, like six months. Oh, yeah, and then like there was a pet shop show, and like all this stuff. Like, it was great research for me because I do like preschool animation, so I was like, Yeah, let’s talk about it. Um, I have a question for you guys. So, um, for me, being judged as a mom, the mom judge, is incredibly like it’s very there all the time, things that I do. So, you know, when Quincy was little, the frozen, she wanted to wear her frozen nightgown to preschool. She did it every day for three weeks. I did not give a fuck. Good. I think there was some pushback from one of the teachers because one of the other kids was I was like, no, you fuckers can come to my house and get my kid fucking dressed. This is what she’s wearing. It was like two or three weeks every day, and it was like this gross satin thing that you know, like you’re not supposed to leave your kids in because it bursts into flames at the right temperature. She slept in it, she wore it, we washed it. She slept in it with like but that was hard to get to that point of I don’t care. And now with her diabetes, it’s all about counting carbs. You have to know how many carbs of food is in order to tell her insulin pump how much insulin to give her. So we are ruled by conversations about carbs, not because it’s carbs are bad, carb, it’s just information, so we can make sure she doesn’t like, I don’t know, have a seizure and die or whatever, just the casual stuff. But we’re in the grocery store shopping, we’re always talking about, well, which is the soda without carbs and how many carbs. And I can feel, even if no one’s around us, I can feel the judgment. Because if I walked by a woman talking to her preteen daughter about carbs, I would be like, what the fuck is wrong with you? I can’t believe you’re doing this to your kid in the diet culture. But like, how is that like there’s a very specific mom shame, right? Because we’re supposed to be the ones who are teaching them about diet and bodies and you know, being the the person, especially for girls, as gay parents of daughters, what is that like? That is there a parenting shame component that you deal with.
David:
Literally, before you joined, we were talking about um pre b before you had kids and how you would judge parents and parenting, and then after you had kids, how you would judge parents and parenting, and did anything change? And and our our consensus was like some of the stuff you were like, you know what, give them a break. But a lot of the stuff, a lot of the judgments you had on other parents, you maintained because you were like, no, no, no, I’m doing this. But I I don’t know about you, Gavin, but I for me mine is always gay focused because that’s been the kind of biggest, not trauma of my life, but it’s it’s very very much informed who I was. Is there’s this weird chip on my shoulder as a gay parent that I when I walk into the daycare or walk, whatever, I am aware that everyone is aware that I am a gay parent.
SPEAKER_01:
Maybe you should stop wearing that shirt. I’m a gay parent.
David:
Wow. I thought you meant like this specific shirt. This black was a little too gay.
SPEAKER_01:
Just screams gay. Gay dad. But like, but I do.
David:
I I walk into these, I walk into the daycare and I think like, how do I look like every other dad? Homogene. And if I don’t, sh homogenize. Or should I lean into that? And and so that is that is a chip on my shoulder for sure. I don’t know if I get shame for it, but we uh there’s definitely this weird aspect of like, why do gays have kids? How did you get your kid? That is always a little frustrating to me that I feel defensive about. Um, unless somebody earnestly asks. I love when somebody walks up to me, they’re like, so like how did you guys become a family? Like, I love it, but like I don’t like the word like how’d you get your kid? So, you know, I tell people all the time, I’m like, well, a poorly attentive parent at a bus stop, and I just grabbed him and ran. Like, that’s how else do you gays get kids?
Gavin:
Hey, Lorian, back to you. Uh now I don’t want to make everybody think that you’re a passive-aggressive person who hates her children. So, how is parenting great? Also, can you tell us?
unknown:
No.
Gavin:
Cold. No, quiet, cold.
SPEAKER_01:
I mean, it’s really there’s a lot of personal work, right? Like when my daughter is five, I’m remembering when I’m five. There’s a lot of things that I’m able to put into perspective about my own the parenting I received. Um, about some of the stuff that I had not given my mom credit for that I could give them, my mom’s give them credit for. Uh, and then a lot of stuff where I’m like, no, yeah, I’m right. I was totally validated. I mean, I love my daughter. She should absolutely be in the world. She is going to be a force to be reckoned with. She’s all the things I love about a person and all the things that drive me crazy about a person. Um, I don’t know. It’s so hard to articulate how it’s great because I still I’m Jewish. Look, I focus on the negative. The more you complain, the longer God lets you live. I mean, come on. You don’t let him know things are going well or he’s gonna give you more.
David:
Lauren, you’re gonna live forever. I’m gonna live forever.
SPEAKER_01:
Um I think my relationship with her is um good. I don’t know. I’m trying to figure out what is good about parenting. That’s all right. We don’t have terrible. I love her. I seriously, I would scratch your face off and, you know, make you eat your own testicles if you said anything mean about her or tried to, you know. Yes, you would be eating your own testicles with no skin on your face. That’s the picture I have of how that’s a complicated, yeah.
Gavin:
I mean, but we’ve got our teeth. We have teeth still. Yeah. Okay.
SPEAKER_01:
But I I think there are, I’m gonna get off this podcast and be like, oh my god, there are so many wonderful things about being a parent. I think it’s connecting with other parents and being able to tell the truth about how hard it is.
SPEAKER_02:
Nice.
SPEAKER_01:
Um, and also being able to celebrate those little joys. Like my kid got a note home from the school uh from her teacher that was like, I like you because you’re funny and smart and you’re a great writer, you know, which is actually a compliment about me, so I like that part. I mean I like it, you know, it feels good in karate. She’s been in karate for about a year, and she will, you know, volunteer to be the person who um models something. Um she just watching her become even more of who she is is really cool, and to see that like we we are who we are. It’s just about like how certain things are framed for us at kids that help us become like healthy or not. And so um that’s really fun and uh inspiring to watch her. She’s just always been who she is, and then it’s my job to help her not like you said, not be so traumatized that she’s you know has to go away for a while, or but traumatized just enough to keep her creative.
David:
Absolutely. So before we let you go, I want to say uh two two great things. Uh first one is, and I’m gonna be very vague about this, is that the part the part of the reason this podcast exists is because of you, Lorien. Not just because you’re responsible for my entire career, which is absolutely the truth.
SPEAKER_01:
You’re welcome, everybody.
David:
But Lorian and I, Lorien created and is invited me into a small private community, which I won’t name or label or talk about where it exists, but it is a community of like-minded parents where we can say this kind of shit in a safe space where we all can laugh and cry, but also just be totally fucking honest about sometimes you’ll see somebody say, I fucking hate my kid today. I hate them with all of my being. And everyone’s like, We hear you, we love you. And it is such a it is exactly who I surround myself with parent-wise. You, Lorian, you Gavin, we are who hate their kids. People who hate their fucking kids. No, but people who chose to be parents but are are able to be honest about the parts that suck too, because they get very popular, especially at least in the gay parenting world, to have these gorgeous, high-key Instagram accounts about how everyone is so beautiful and parenting is just such a luxury, and there’s you know, everyone’s wearing white and wading through a little creek and everything. And I’m like, no, I want to talk about the time I really wanted to throw my kid out the window. And so, you this community that you have created, I’m very excited to be a part of, and that’s part of why this podcast exists. And then the last thing I want to end our interview on is I have a story to I have one more story to tell you.
SPEAKER_01:
Oh, please.
David:
Tell us, tell us.
SPEAKER_01:
So uh my daughter and I and my husband were at Target the other day, you know, Target at the Glendale Galleria.
SPEAKER_02:
As you do.
SPEAKER_01:
Don’t get don’t get more suburban than that.
SPEAKER_02:
Fancy.
SPEAKER_01:
And um uh for those of you not in California, that’s not the Galleria from Valet Girl. Please don’t pretend you don’t know what that reference is, David, because I will throw you out the window. Um so we were there, we she bought this jumpsuit she really wanted. So we went into the bathroom to try it on, and I was waiting for her to try it on. And this mom came in, like holding the door open for her son, who’s probably like 11, and she was like, get in here, go to the bathroom. And then he wouldn’t. And she’s like, Oh my god, I’m gonna murder him. I’m like, You’re doing a good job. You’re okay. I’m like, is it because it’s the girl’s bathroom? She’s like, No, I take him in here all the time. He’s gonna piss his pants. That’s what he’s gonna do. He’s gonna piss his pants, god damn it. And I was like, You’re doing a good job. So I felt so good about this connection I had with this mom in the bathroom. Like, I saw her, I validated her, I didn’t judge her. Later, Brian tells me the story about how he’s waiting for us outside the bathroom. And this mom comes out of the bathroom with her son and she says, We are going home. I’m not leaving you outside the bathroom with him standing here pointing at my husband. Meaning like he was a creeper.
David:
He was just waiting at the changing room just for the next victim.
SPEAKER_01:
So that’s why she was so mad about getting him into the bathroom with her, not because he couldn’t wait outside, because there was a creepy man and it was my husband.
David:
So you were complimenting her on her skills at n at seeing a possible pedophile hanging outside.
SPEAKER_01:
So it was like, oh, that’s like a good TV moment right there. Yeah, that’s like the button on the end of the scene, is like Chris Bryan’s feelings were very hurt, but to be fair, he’s like 6’4. He’s got a great big head.
David:
And he’s he’s got a very kind of stoic face and he’s very still.
SPEAKER_01:
So that’s a smile a lot.
David:
No, so it is off, it can be off-putting to a stranger that this tall man is just lurking outside the changing rooms. And I love that you that you validated the mom’s feelings, like, yeah, that creeper, don’t, don’t let that creeper in.
SPEAKER_01:
Not even him. Like, but that’s basically why she was so intense about getting him. I didn’t know any about that stuff.
David:
That’s amazing. Um, and the last thing I want to end on is just it’s just uh a very speaking of TV, you were nominated for an Emmy. What the hell?
SPEAKER_01:
I was, and I lost to Sesame Street, which is a good one. And you lost to Sesame Street, which is amazing. So awesome. I was two Sesame Street shows were nominated in the same category, and I was like, oh my god, this is the best thing ever. And then one of them won, and I was like, that you can’t, it can’t be better than that.
David:
What an incredible. I mean, first of all, incredible for you professionally that that that you were nominated.
SPEAKER_01:
But also incredible for you professionally because you’re a writer on that same show.
David:
I am a writer on that same show. But also you got to bring your daughter to the Emmys.
SPEAKER_01:
Yes, she had an amazing time.
Gavin:
Did she wear the jumper from Target?
SPEAKER_01:
No, no, no. That was just like last weekend. Oh, the Emmys were a while ago. She um she got to meet like one of the actresses from the babysitters club. She got to like, she played with the little girl who won for what’s that TV show? Punky Brewster. They redid Punky Brewster, so that little girl won. So she got to play with her, and she was so excited to go to school the next day. And like, I went to the Emmys and I met all these people. No one knew what the Emmys were, and no one believed her. So, in terms of like social capital, but she had a blast. She loved it.
David:
That’s awesome. Um, thank you for demeaning yourself by being on our podcast. You are a big one.
SPEAKER_01:
I mean, I am gonna go have to take a hot silk c silkwood shower later.
David:
Yes, and but um if you aren’t already subscribed to the screenwriting life, please subscribe to her podcast where she talks much more eloquently than I do.
SPEAKER_01:
Shut up. It’s exactly this just about writing. I mean more eloquent eloquently, hardly. You David has been on the podcast as a writer.
David:
I was a guest on your podcast. I I demean myself to be on your podcast, so thank you for demeaning yourself of being on Mars.
SPEAKER_01:
Yeah. Well, thank you for having me. I love the idea of your show. Um, I listened to some of it already, and I don’t listen to podcasts, so there you go. That’s a big thing. Thank you for joining me. Thank you for asking me questions about myself. I love to talk about myself. Uh let’s hope my mom doesn’t find this podcast. And um, parenting is awesome. I love it. I will think of 10 reasons why it’s so great, and I will email it to you.
David:
Got it. Bye.
SPEAKER_01:
Bye.
David:
Okay, so now it is time to end our episode with something great. So this week, my something great is I think a lot of parents will uh understand is my kid has started to get frustrated with things and start to what he thinks is a curse. And my kid, his his new thing is like he he’s he’s trying to say shut up to toys, to his sister. He sometimes tries it with us, but he says shut out. He’s a you sh shut out, and it makes me so fucking uh happy. I don’t know why that or it’ll say, you know, ridiculous. He’s like, you’re being ridiculous, dad. And he’s so seething with rage, and all I could think of is you fucking idiot. You can’t even say the word right. And it just fills my heart with joy because there’s something so sweet to seeing such an angry toddler just completely misusing uh curse words. And so that’s my something great this week.
Gavin:
I have a kid who’s a little older and he does know how to use cursed words for better or for worse, and recently he still, with an impish grin on his face, will reach back to his preschool days and say, when we’re having dinner or doing something that we have ketchup on the table, he says, Hey dad, pass the cup shit, which is what he used to call ketchup. And I have to say there are times that our approach to cussing is like, you know what? Time and place, dude. Time and place. Don’t get in trouble for it and don’t make us look bad, time and place. And so if my kid says pass the cup shit with that impish little grin, it’s always something great. That’s funny. And that’s our show. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments, you can email us at gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.
David:
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