Full Transcript
I am I am just a whirling dervish of non-kalendrical business. However, I do know.
David:
Can you can you stitch that on a pillow? A whirling dervish of centrifugal wellness?
SPEAKER_01:
Of non-kalendrical. I don’t even know what the last word was.
David:
And this is Gatriarch’s. Wait, in the totally by accident. In the podcast. Jamie Grayson’s episode, Your Something Great, was reading your kid Tom Sawyer and then Harry Potter. And I reacted with like, oh, problematic language. And then you reacted with something. And then Sloan Just’s episode, exactly the same thing happened. So we are new to everyone out there listening, all 10 of you, we are new to podcasting. Oh, geez. So we are still learning how to organize all of the things and remember what we did. So you know what?
Gavin:
My takeaway from that though is that your husband is listening and he’s listening well. We have a listener. Let’s see if before this comes out, if anybody else calls us on this. Because I have a couple of friends who are regular listeners and I don’t know if they’re listening carefully. I mean, you know, that’s mortifying, mortifying that that happened. But at the same time, now, thinking back on it, I might have had a tiny bit of deja vu in telling it apparently the second time and thinking, wait, have I already talked about this? But I do that all the time. I is it dad brain? Is it old? No, you’re just very old. Yeah, yeah. How embarrassing. Well, we’re gonna get better. But also, I think there might be greater embarrassment on your end.
David:
Oh no, 100%. I’m the true embarrassment because I reacted earnestly to your something great and said the same thing twice. Exactly the same thing. I am absolutely the most embarrassed. Oh my god. That’s yeah, that’s on the big thing. So anyway, apologies to everyone out there. But I wanted to start this episode with something crazy. Um, kids on leashes, Gavin. Oh. Ever seen a kid on a leash?
Gavin:
I mean, I’ve never had a runner for a child. He’s they’ve I’ve never I I have that Broadway ping, you know? That Broadway ping. If I yell at my kids, I do get their attention. I have sympathy for somebody who’s in a place like Disneyland or out on the streets of New York City, and they feel like this is this is keeping my child alive. I am being daddy bear. I’m being a bear. Stop it. I’m being a daddy bear and I’m not gonna let my kid run into uh traffic. So I mean, but it’s a drastic it’s a drastic resort, but I’m glad I am very I see people like that, and I’m very glad I’ve never had to leash my children.
David:
But it’s absolutely one of those things that when I before I became a parent, I saw and I was like, you guys are disgusting. You can’t even like, you’re not even willing to watch your own child. And I we were at the mall the other day and I saw somebody, it was uh, I don’t know if she was by herself or not, but at the time she was by herself and she had a kid, like a little kid in her hand, and she had this one kid, and he was on a leash and he was just pulling her along like a like a great dane. And I thought, good for you, girl. Because if she’s there by herself, yeah, and you got a runner, yeah, leash that motherfucker, leash that motherfucker for days. But it’s but it’s it sounds awful, and I’m still judgmental about it. I reserve the right to be judgmental about everything, including myself. But I was like, yeah, I I get that, especially for us when it comes to sa safety. But also, like you said, if you got a runner kid.
Gavin:
You gotta choose your battles. Parenting is all about choosing your battles, and in this case, um, you know, I bet her day is a lot more productive by not having to chase the child all the time.
David:
And I don’t think he’s leashed at home, right? Like you don’t leash your child at home. I think this was probably a special scenario.
Gavin:
To the to the dining room table. So that’s it. Exactly.
David:
Just yeah, just tie him to the tree and leave him a bowl of water. Um, so let’s talk about traveling with kids really quickly before we get to our really extra special guest. Uh-huh. Um, I am going to try I have traveled with both of my kids a few times. This year we are going to travel a lot and very far together. Oh, really? And I’m slightly terrifying, so terrified. So I just wanted to quickly go through how do you travel with kids? Um, I want your advice, but I also want to give the minimal advice that I have. But I I I I am a little scared because every time your kid gets a little older, they change, and all of the things you need to travel with kids changes. So, Gaben, do you have any like ideas on like what’s the best way to travel with a kid?
Gavin:
First of all, I think we always, always need to divorce ourselves from the idea that there is a one-size-fits-all. Anyone who has a blog out there, I have no experience with that whatsoever. About the the top five things you need to be able to travel, it’s all bullshit because everything is gonna change and everything is circumstantial, and everything it goes with the vicissitudes of your travel and your kids and the experience. The main thing is you just gotta chill out a little bit, and this will end, and you will get there, and it’s gonna be fine, and you’re all gonna be in one place, and who cares if the people behind you hate you or the people in front of you kick you?
David:
Well, that’s that’s for sure on my list is like the people around you, you’ve got to divorce yourself from feeling any sort of way about those people. Yes, it would be nice if you could keep your kids calm so everyone enjoys their time. But also, if you have a one-year-old who’s crying because her ear hurts, everyone’s gonna have to get over it. Yeah, try not to worry yourself with the fact that the people behind you are not gonna be able to watch Banshees of Inishirin without being disturbed, but and and stay awake through it.
Gavin:
I imagine it was very good. It was good. I mean, I I think that it would be a good idea to make eye contact with the people in front and in back and just be like, hey, bruh, sorry about this in advance. I apologize in advance. Seriously, making a human connection with somebody, and if they immediately look like, oh god, oh, this is gonna be terrible. I’m gonna have to move. Well, at least you gave them a heads up and maybe they can move sooner. But also making a human connection to be like to say to people, I’m I’m I just I pre-apologize. And that set that lowers their expectations. That probably makes them think, oh god, there’s gonna be a monster, a a banshee sitting in front of me while I’m trying to watch about Inashiren. But um, making eye contact, I think, honestly, is a really important thing. I don’t think that you need to go to the degree of having sandwich bags full of goodies and no whatever guys.
David:
But you do need snacks for your kids. That to me is the only piece of advice is to oh have your bags so full of snacks that you swear you could feed the entire plane.
Gavin:
But I think it’s a really good idea to have them also as surprises and you pack stuff, little trinkets that are easy little surprises that you take out and it delights the kid, and then they have something new to do. And so I would say you don’t need to bring a lot of treats, either food or toys, but you you don’t need to be big quantities, but you probably should bring some differing things to surprise and delight them. And also with a baby, I know that this is uh hopefully uh obvious, but just make sure you have a pacifier to let the kid um, you know, regulate their ears when they uh take off or landing.
David:
I think the snack thing and the the toy thing is about the newness, right? Like once they get bored with, you know, the puffs or the tablet or whatever you have with them, then you’re like, oh, by the way, I also have this car. And it’s like, oh, this is gonna, you know, this is gonna burn the next five minutes, and then we gotta think of something new.
Gavin:
Oh, it truly in five minutes, and also no asshole parent out there can think to themselves, uh, I just wish I could have this to myself. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, dude. You made your bed, you have to lie in it. Your job is to keep your kid occupied on the plane, it really is. So, just like if you stay calm, it’s gonna be easier for everybody.
David:
So, something I found out um on TikTok, because I I my entire life is TikTok, is there is a program, and I looked it up to make sure it was real before I I recommended it on the podcast. There is a program called TSA Cares, and it’s a program where they will send a person at the airport with you from the um initial check-in all the way through um security. Wow. And it’s meant for people who need help, so people with maybe disabilities, um, people traveling with pets, stuff like that. But if you are traveling with children and multiple children and you don’t have enough help, or you have too many bags, or you’re a little bit worried about how am I gonna get through security with this, you can apply for TSA Cares and it’s totally free. And they will literally have a person meet you at the airport and will walk with you, hold your stuff, help with your kids all the way through security. So, for those of you out there who are traveling, who are a little nervous about it, look up the TSA Cares program. Um, I want to tell one quick travel horror story that I went through just as uh a little lighthearted moment before we get into our very, very dark guest. Um, and that is when my first my son was born, we were brand new parents, we were flying, it’s day three, he was three days old. And we get on the plane, and of course we’re in the bulkhead seat. And of course, when you have an infant that young on a plane, you’re the star. Everybody who walks by is like, oh also, the easiest flight you’ll ever take, because all they’re going to do is sleep, and then wake up to have a bottle, you’ll burp them, they’ll go right back to sleep. So it’s it’s actually the best. So we’re we’re flying, and I’m now a three, I have three days um on my resume as a dad. So I am super cocky. I am like, I can change a diaper, I don’t need help, I know what I’m doing. So because we’re fucking cheap, um, we booked you know, the middle seat and the window seat in economy with an infant. So the guy on the aisle, luckily, super nice. His him and his wife were actually going through IVF, so we had a lot to talk about. And I decided, because I was really smart when we were all eating, oh, I need to change this kid’s diaper. I’m not gonna go all the way back to the thing. I’m just gonna change his diaper in my lap. And I turned to the guy, I’m like, watch me, I’m really good at changing diapers.
Gavin:
Oh my god, you set yourself up for so much failure. One, I don’t think it’s cheap that you didn’t get a third seat. That’s bullshit.
David:
But so I start changing his diaper, and I’m meanwhile, the whole time he’s eating his sandwich, we all have food in front of us, and I’m talking to this guy, like, hey, you know, I can change a diaper in like five seconds, watch me. I can tell he was hot, right? He was kind of hot. You can tell because I was flirting with him. Yes, yeah, so he was he was kind of cute. So the second, if you’ve ever had a baby boy, the second that diaper came off, he immediately started dissing everywhere, and he just shot piss all over the seat, all over that guy’s sandwich, all over me in mid- in mid-boast about how great I am at changing diapers. He pisses on this guy’s sandwich and all over me in the scene. So, my advice to their the parents out there who are gonna fly with a three-day old walk back to the bathroom and change your child’s diaper away from 34E’s turkey sandwich.
Gavin:
Hey, 34E, if you are out there. God, I hope you’re listening to our podcast. Two, would you like to be a sponsor? We are um opening up uh options for sponsorship. And three, I really want you to come on and tell the story from your perspective. Alright, so uh our top three, let’s get into that, shall we? We I proposed that we have a top three about your top three worries about your kids. And worries about your kids, I don’t mean like choking on an olive pit. I mean like the catty shit that let’s just face it, you will look better as a parent if your kids don’t grow up and do this kind of shit. Or whatever. Yeah, whatever you want your top three to be. Okay, so okay, in third place, please don’t let my kid be tone-deaf. Hey, you do not have to walk through your life being able to sing like a lark or whatever, like Beyoncé or whomever. But I just hope that my kid can carry a tune and we have some crossover, I think. Jury’s still out. Uh in second place, I really just hope that my kid doesn’t be a complaining needy kid who just complains all the time. I mean right now. She’s totally a complainer. But you know, you get that out of your system and hopefully you realize that in life, you you’re not making any friends by just complaining about stuff. Like either solve the problem or just shut up about it, right? So just please don’t be a needy complainer. And in first place, just please be interesting. Just be curious, be funny enough, be just be interesting. Don’t be the person who sucks the energy out of a room because I just won’t want to spend time with you. So just please be interesting.
David:
What about you, Dave? We have a little bit of uh crossover. Um mine are, of course, meaner and more um selfish than yours, as as expected. So my number three is that they won’t be rich. I want my kids to be rich. I want them to be rich, I want them to make so much money, I want them to I want them to buy me a lake house. I want a lake house and a boat. I want all versions of water. So number three, yeah.
Gavin:
That they won’t be rich. That’s my number four now. But but it is fourth because I’m not that as materialistic and catty as you are.
David:
Correct, that’s correct. Um, number two, this is our crossover. My worry is that they’ll be untalented. Uh yeah. I want them to have some sort of innate skill that uh um pleases me. Um and entertains you. And number one, my biggest fear that I have for my kids is that they’ll be gay. I want straight kids. I’ll I’ll say it. I’ve had enough of the gayness in my life. I got a gay husband, I got a gay podcast partner, I want straight children to take me to the baseball game and to tell me about trucks and introduce them to their girlfriend.
Gavin:
So bring back the heteronormative in David F. M. Bond’s life. Does that mean your kid’s gonna be like a patriarch? Oh, I hope so. The Gadriarch gives birth to the patriarch.
David:
Yeah, yeah, that’s really good. Um, all right, so next week we’re gonna tone it down a little bit. Ooh. We’re not gonna be so crazy. Oh, jeez. We’re gonna be a little more inspiring, a little more Aven Lodge, and a little less David FM on. Your top three favorite quotes. Anything about anything.
Gavin:
Oh, we can make these really catty, though.
David:
I mean, sure, true, but I got something. What are the three quotes that like you think about all the time or that have affected you significantly?
SPEAKER_01:
Okay.
David:
You know, that sounded like a prisoner being given his last meal. Okay. Our guest this week is a fellow podcaster. We’re on the same level of podcasting, uh, Broadway alum. She’s done five and a half Broadway shows. Um, she claims to be the reason that Gavin and I even know each other. She listen, she believes a lot of things that aren’t true. So please begrudgingly welcome to the show, Ellen Marie Marsh. Hi, Ellen.
SPEAKER_05:
Hi. Okay, so now you have to explain to your 10 listeners that that you can’t say begrud, you have to explain our dynamic, or they’re gonna think you’re a wildebeest.
David:
They are gonna well listen. If anybody’s been listening to this show, which I think maybe my mom and my husband have half listened to this show. Not mine, though. Yeah, no. Um, Ellen and I have a very, very, very volatile friendship where 99%, we were just talking about this off camera, 99% of the things we say to each other are the most horrible, hateful, meanest things you could ever say to each other. But it’s therapy. It’s friendship therapy. And then at the end we say, I love you, never leave me. So it’s just kind of how we talk. So, and and honestly, previous guests, you’ve kind of noticed like the people I love the most are the people I shit on the most often.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, which is something I hope you’re working through in therapy. But you don’t really go to therapy, you just like make more kids.
David:
You are my therapy, honestly. But wait, can we talk about it? And you started podcast. And we start podcasts, honestly. That’s my therapy. But I want to talk about last night, before we get into things, last night I marco poloed you, and I want you to tell me the first words you said in your marco polo to me.
SPEAKER_05:
Wait, no, let’s let’s play it. Hold on, let’s play it.
SPEAKER_04:
I confirmed and said I was doing it at 10:30, so I put it in my calendar. I’m sitting fully clothed in my bed. Drinking a motion.
David:
Yeah, yeah. I I would like everyone out there to know the real Ellen Maria Marsh sits in bed in the dark, fully clothed, drinking a milkshake. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, I had a day. You know, when you just had a day and you’re like, I don’t want to see any more people. It could be 6 p.m. and I’m just like, I am done peopling for the day.
Gavin:
But when I’m that exhausted with people and just everything, it doesn’t occur to me to go to the effort of making a milkshake. Did you make or order a milkshake?
SPEAKER_05:
No, went to five guys.
Gavin:
Um, okay. Yeah. What flavor?
SPEAKER_05:
Vanilla.
David:
Okay.
SPEAKER_05:
Just like my personality.
David:
Yeah. Well, let’s talk about how we know each other really quickly because uh you and I met 150 years ago. Yeah, 1902. It was 1902. We did a a very interesting production of West Side Story in the Czech Republic. Gavin, how do you, I don’t actually know how you guys know each other.
Gavin:
So Ellen and I met in Priscilla Queen of the Desert. I was the late guy to the uh to the process because somebody else lost their job, and so I walked in and and I was like, who is this girl who’s writing her name on the board? They for some reason there was some kind of board that we were putting our birth dates on, and I could see that she had written her year but had erased it 75 times to show that she was born in 1982, no, 1992, nope, 1986, nope, 1997. And I just remembered this woman who was hilarious, was uh incapable of saying what year she uh was born, and I still to this date have no idea how old Ellen is, none whatsoever.
SPEAKER_05:
Wait, I don’t remember that, but that that tracks that’s pretty much.
Gavin:
It was you and Mike McGowan uh arguing over what year you were born.
SPEAKER_05:
Wait, I don’t remember that at all. But can you tell one of our favorite stories real quickly in in a short, in a short, full sentence way that’s gonna happen, Ellen?
Gavin:
You can’t because I can’t make full sentences, but uh but we but also one of the things I was curious about is Ellen and I have argued a fair amount, and I would say it’s a little more genuinely arguing than the two of you sometimes, because I remember looking over Ellen’s uh shoulder one time when she was on her phone while we were in Toronto rehearsing, and I’m like, there’s somebody labeled the gay in your phone. You you’ve just objectified some friend that you just called the gay. And if you can see my face, it was very much that Ellen would be like, yeah, he’s the gay. Who is the I it was it David F.
David:
M. Bond?
SPEAKER_05:
No, it was Patrick Hines.
David:
Do you know, do you know, do you know what I’m in her phone? Tell him.
SPEAKER_05:
Hate.
David:
Hate.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, and he has been for like 15 years.
David:
Literally 15 years. What before we I really want before we leave this topic, do you know there’s a very famous, we all know, Broadway actress who has a fake ID, but it’s the other direction. Oh, we all know this person. We do, and we will it’s not Ellen Marie and Rush. Who is not Ellen Marie Rush? We’ll talk about it. We’ll talk about it off camera. But it is because she she famously has a fake ID the other direction. Anyway, moving on. Ellen, you are actually a podcaster. We are not real podcasters. This is all Fake. This is all just a reason to get together every Friday. You are the host of two very famous podcasts. One is the I think not pod, which is really hard to say. Um, and the other one is Ellen and Rabbia Solve the Case, both a true comp crime uh moment. Tell us, um, how did you get there from Broadway? Because you were a Broadway actress for most of your life, and then all of a sudden you’re like this famous podcaster.
Gavin:
You peaked in Prague and it went downhill from there, and like the shows got shorter, the runs got shorter, the rolls got shorter, but you milked them. You milked them.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah. I bamboozled the fuck out of Broadway. I was like, I kept telling David, I was like, you know they’re gonna catch on. Like they’re gonna catch on and be like Broadway’s greatest crime that she ever started. Yeah, they’re gonna be like, who the fuck who let her? I mean, I guess she’s got somebody likes her, you know. I just kept showing up and being like, Do you guys joke’s on you? Um well, I started because a friend of mine had a really successful podcast, and he had asked me years ago to make a podcast with him, but I was knee deep in seven divorces, and I was like, I don’t have time, I’ve got court appearances. I was like, at that time in my life, my stress level was like Britney Spears circa 2007. So I was like, I can’t take anything else on. So then he circled back and was like, Do you want to make this podcast? And completely oddly enough, we had started recording the beginning of February 2020.
Gavin:
And this was not post-this wasn’t in, I thought it was in the middle of the pandemic. Like ironically, something happened in the world and I was sitting around with nothing to do.
SPEAKER_05:
No, it wasn’t like that. It did the timing did seem like it was a pandemic thing, and it absolutely wasn’t. And I don’t know, I I think the symbiotic synergy of it. Whatever.
Gavin:
I don’t I just time space continuum.
SPEAKER_05:
This the the the thing and then the paradoxal shift of the earth. Uh it ended up just being really successful. I do kind of think it’s because people were just chilling at home and listening to podcasts, and it kind of took off in a really weird way. And I would love to toot my own horn and pat my back and be like, I just rocked at that. The fact of the matter is, it kind of just mirrors my Broadway career. I just think I was in the right place at the right time. And I am a Muppet, and I’ll do anything to make people happy because I’m needy and basic.
Gavin:
And self-aware, though. And self-aware.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah. I mean, call it what it is. Like, what am I supposed to be? No, I actually knew what the fuck I was doing. No, I was getting on a microphone and just yapping.
David:
It’s so interesting because the beginning of the pandemic really was the beginning of a lot of podcasts. One of my favorite podcasts in the world, Smartless, was the beginning of these three guys just wanting to keep in touch during the pandemic and started zooming. And they were like, Well, should we record this? And they were like, Yeah, let’s do it. And then that became Smartless is maybe the number one podcast in the world. And it’s like that, it’s it’s crazy how that was the beginning of exactly what you were saying. But for you, it had started before that.
SPEAKER_05:
I didn’t know that Smartless started during the pandemic. That timing does make sense. But I also think that I’ve always loved consuming podcasts. I mean, I I take it oddly enough, I take it back to carbs and also um, you know, red flag toxic men, but we’ll talk about that later. Um oddly enough, serial was the start of my cons many people’s consumption of podcasting. Oh, yeah. And the crazy thing is, cereal serial never would have been brought to NPR if it wasn’t for my other podcast partner, Robbia Chaudhry. So that was Mad props to Rodia.
Gavin:
Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:
Well, the way that Robbia was like a quote, this is her words, not mine, quote, fan of my other podcast. And she reached out to me and said, I really want to do something. And I was like, okay, yeah, yeah, sure, we’re gonna do something. You guys know that’s such a showbizy thing to say. And then she kept bothering me. I was like, calm down, lady, get off my tits, you know? And she’s like a huge titan in true crime. And I was like, Oh, you were serious about that? So then we made a another podcast.
Gavin:
Yeah, I mean, bonkers and hats off. And you’re really you deserve everything you uh have right now because you’re really fucking good at it, and also you’re a terrible person and never leave my life. So let’s move.
SPEAKER_05:
Look at you getting it on the job.
Gavin:
Let’s move to the topic at hand. You uh are a parent. Let’s talk about that also. Like we are we’re parenting. Are you a gay parent? Have you ever been a gay parent? Are would you do you want to be a gay parent?
SPEAKER_05:
I feel I am an emotional lesbian because I am how you know sexuality isn’t a choice. Um, because obviously I wouldn’t choose men. Um so I would like my life partner to be a woman, but who would also, you know, let me take it every once in a while with some random dude.
Gavin:
Do you think there’s how many people, how many women agree with you? One, and how many women are living that life, do would you say?
SPEAKER_05:
I don’t think that’s a very uh I don’t think that’s a very mainstream lifestyle. But I do think that the more we open our eyes to these non-conventional lifestyles, like there is this family on TikTok. They’re married and they have a house and the the the mom and dad live on separate floors. I was like, that’s oh my god.
Gavin:
Because why not you had a very funny post a little while ago. I mean, you have a funny host daily, but uh you did the the um Carol Burnett saying if I ever got married again, I do would just he would have to live in the house next door.
unknown:
Yeah.
David:
But you and I, Ellen, you and I have a a a close friend who who says that all the time is like, I I I struggle to keep girlfriends because I don’t want to live with them. I want to have a separate residence. But here’s the thing you straight people are always 10 years behind us. The gays have we are so far beyond, like we were we’re the ones who came up with open relationships and non-traditional, like, but but it’s it’s actually true, like all jokes aside, like I feel like kids the kids now are starting to like be like, no, I want to have a relationship structure that works for me. It doesn’t have to be we get married. Exactly. We don’t have to get married and have the kids. But speaking of, you were married and you had a kid, and so you are a parent, so you that is how you earned your way onto this podcast. And so I want to talk a little bit of okay, yeah. All right, she’s rolling her eyes for the people listening. Um, but for but I wanted to get into that a little bit because I think it would be really helpful for people to hear um both about kind of being married, but now that you’re not married and you’re dating and you have a kid, that’s gotta be very different than you know, you’re 22 and you’re on bumble and just swiping.
SPEAKER_05:
Oddly enough, my podcast has turned into some kind of a platform for me being the poster child for divorce is amazing. And I didn’t really mean it. And both of you actually, David Morseau knew my ex. David knew my ex for a very, very long time. Um did he like your ex?
Gavin:
Do you think is your ex listening?
SPEAKER_05:
You did like Travis for a minute.
David:
He was he was nice, but like we were oil and water. Like he’s like like on the bro y side of things, and but like he was nice enough. Never not nice to me, always kind to me. But yeah.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, he wasn’t an outwardly like awful person. Like he was British and charming enough. Like he wasn’t a guy you were like, you know, red flag central. Like, you know, I had enough red flags to make a caftan, but like not many people saw them, you know what I mean?
Gavin:
And does he listen to any of your podcasts? And also does your daughter listen to your podcasts?
SPEAKER_05:
Lola does has listened to a couple of my podcasts as of a couple months ago. Do you know why? This is so embarrassing. Why? Her kids are like fans, her her friends are like fans of mine. Oh god.
Gavin:
Oh god. They’re like, I follow your mom on TikTok. I know. She resents the fuck out of you, doesn’t she?
SPEAKER_05:
I don’t know if she does. I think maybe, but I also think there’s like a little part of her that’s like, my mom is cooler than your mom. Yeah.
David:
Nice. She also grew up in that, right? You you you were never you were always fearless. I remember you showing up to an audition at Actor’s Equity near the McDonald’s. We all know where the McDonald’s is. Um, with Lola in a bag, and you’re like, hey, not in a bag, but like with you, and you’re like, hey, let’s let we’re gonna go audition here, hold this baby. But like Lola has been on Broadway stages. There’s a beautiful photo in your house that I love so much of her at the New Amsterdam Theater, kind of in the wings. Is it New Amsterdam? And she’s like, she’s like peeking from the side of the wings, and she’s like probably four or five. It’s just a gorgeous photo. So she’s been around kind of your celebrity for a long time.
SPEAKER_05:
We were doing um um Broadway Cares, right? It was like a Broadway cares thing, and we were we were sound checking, and oddly enough, she was watching Andrea Burns sing. Fast forward years later, Andrea Burns and I were in Rose Tattoo together, and I showed her the picture. It was really like really magical. Um, but yeah, I think that somehow in this podcasting world, I started talking about my divorce, and then uh I had a relationship after my divorce that um ended in a blaze of glory again, which seems to be um, is this therapy? Uh, which seems to be a thing, and then sort of dating, but exactly what you said, David, is kind of all of our generation being so behind in finding out that we can kind of write the right as in the rules that we want. Like we all subscribe to the I have to get married and have kids and cook a lasagna on Friday nights. And yeah, we just it just doesn’t have to be that way.
David:
And that’s and I I will say that what what tot uh another podcast that totally changed my life, and I hope we get him on here, is Dan Savage has a podcast called Savage Love, and yeah, he has always been really great at showcasing all different kinds of both sexual and romantic relationships that are just quote unquote non-traditional. And you realize that the best relationship is the the one that two contensual adults or uh contensual adults want to be in. End of end of discussion. Whatever that means. And that could mean, and he always says this great thing, he says there the the success of relationship is not in its length. You can have a successful short-term relationship. And when he said that, I was like, you know what? That’s fucking beautiful. I I I have exes that I think it was a successful relationship. I’m just it just ran its course and we’re done, and that’s fine. But um, but I I I the the kind of like we don’t have to fall in love, get married, have a baby, buy a house, do all those things. I mean, first of all, nobody can afford no no gays can afford babies and no people can afford houses anymore. So let’s just take that off the table immediately.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, I saw this. I I can’t remember what it was, like, but it keeps cracking me up. It was some, I don’t know, meme or something, and it said, yeah, millennials are just walking around here like they rent the joint, you know?
David:
That’s really funny.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, I mean, I think that I think I actually secretly always thought that because I was never the woman that envisioned my wedding. My wedding was so low-key, and I never was the woman that was like, this is how I want it, and I want these flowers. I literally bought the first dress I tried on, and I was like, I like yellow. How about yellow flowers? So that was never a thing for me, and I don’t think it was till later in my life where I was like, oh, actually, I am so thoroughly fulfilled by my career. My friends, I mean, you guys know my friends are like my family. That’s true. And also, nobody is no man and no basic man, you know, who comes in with his suitcases of audacity is gonna compete with my gay men friends in terms of wittiness, in terms of making me honestly, and I’m not trying to be like a man hater, I’ve never really had a straight, normal broski make me belly laugh to the point where I feel like I just did an ab workout. So coming to terms with the fact that like I am thoroughly and wholeheartedly uh satisfied with the non-sexual relationships in my life. And I also like having sex with men and finding that and being like, okay, so I make enough money to support myself. I love being a parent. I also love my time not being a parent. I love my friends, and I like dudes to lay on top of me like a, you know, a weighted blanket for a minute and then go home. I don’t like sleepovers. I had to come to terms with that, saying I don’t like sleepovers. You’re supposed to love cuddling and stuff. I don’t like it. It’s probably some trauma thing, but I don’t like it.
David:
But it’s not, I don’t think it’s trauma. I think it’s it’s you, you there, you’re fulfilling a role that you that you were kind of taught, even if you weren’t literally taught it. You saw it in movies, you were kind of it kind of existed in the Zeitgeist. So you were fulfilling a role until you started kind of having to kind of think for yourself, and and whether that was just naturally because you got older or because much older, or because you’re kind of forced out of it in like being divorced or whatever, you you got to finally, you know, we we all are desperately trying to find ourselves, and and you were lucky enough to go, wait a minute, I think I’m figuring out what I actually want. And that and this the the fucking gag is is that you aren’t unique, and that the guys who there are, I guarantee you, guys out there who are like, I just want a girl that I can lay on top of for a little bit, and then I kind of want to go home and sleep in my own bed. But but they probably weren’t taught that they could do that either. So I think I’m I I am hopeful for the youth of the world. I think they’re gonna start fixing that stuff, and I’m gonna I think we’re gonna start seeing a lot less loveless, hateful fucking marriages like we all saw growing up.
SPEAKER_05:
It’s so true. I look at some married people, I’m like, You’re miserable.
David:
You’re miserable.
SPEAKER_05:
You’re miserable. Just blink and tell me that you’re miserable. You don’t have to do this. You don’t. Yeah, and there’s some people who are uh blissfully and annoyingly happy and go off. Like live your life, whatever that means. But there is some shame around not fitting into that patriarchal idea that we’re taught. I was mortified when I got divorced. I remember when I told people I was getting divorced, they’d go, Oh, I’m sorry. And I remember my first reaction was, well, I’m not.
David:
I’m happier now.
SPEAKER_05:
I’m not sorry.
David:
We were both miserable, and now this is better everyone wins in this scenario.
Gavin:
Yeah. Do you think ultimately, though, maybe it all would have had a different outcome if you had just spent a little more on your flowers? Well.
SPEAKER_05:
Oddly enough, I did think about that, and I think you’re right. Yeah. But then I was like, I can buy myself.
Gavin:
Fabulous tradition, uh, transition.
David:
I love that song so much. It’s a great song. It is such a good song. But let’s so so let’s talk about dating. Let’s talk about now that you’re dating and you have a your listen, I’ve known your daughter her entire life. She is old enough now to find your podcast, to find things, but she’s also old enough to probably understand why Uncle Whoever keeps sleeping over at night. So it what is it like dating as a parent of an older kid?
SPEAKER_05:
So I have a unique situation that you both know about. I had a a really unfortunate uh relationship after my marriage, and he was a partner and he lived with us, and all of the things that I, of course, have beaten myself up over and over again. But, you know, a lot of things I wish I hadn’t done, you know? Should I have of course that that is absolutely uh unusable energy, worthless energy, but thinking, oh, should I not have had someone move in? Should I have not have done this? Uh, but anyway, without diverting and talking about that, after that relationship, I made a very, very conscious decision. Um, and my mom thought it was, I remember my mom thinking it was really rash, but I made a conscious decision to not introduce Lola to anyone I was dating um until she was out of the house. And that was my decision because I didn’t see I I have spent my entire adult life coupled. Up until that point, I was coupled my entire adult life. I had never been single. And I don’t, and again, I’m not a relationshipy person because all of those relationships were quite independent, but I made the decision that a romantic relationship wasn’t gonna be a driving force in my life. I wanted to focus on two things, and that was my career and my daughter. And because again, I was not being fulfilled in any substantial way by a romantic relationship. And that does not mean sexual relationship. I was not being fulfilled in a way that I couldn’t be from a partner, and that’s when I started to kind of broad, you know, widen my lens and kind of understand what a relationship in your adult life with a kid, and this all came about also COVID and you know things like that, but other than sex, I really wasn’t seeking any kind of uh connection with uh a a straight cis male.
David:
But still, you are seeking sex, right? So let’s talk about that. So you’re on the apps seeking just sex. How do you navigate that with your daughter at home? Are you sneaking around? Are you being honest about it? How are you navigating that?
SPEAKER_05:
No, I don’t I don’t really talk to her about it.
David:
If she could talk to her, period. I don’t talk to her, period. You’d rather not. You just yell. You yell.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah. So before, I am a full-time single mom now. Before that, I was dating someone long distance, and I fucking love long distance. Oh. Oh, that that is my dream. Like if you could live like minimum two-hour plane, five-hour car ride away, that’s bliss for me. But I was dating someone long distance and it was able to work because I would have, you know, every other weekend, Lola would be with her dad, and that was really, really great because I could have a completely separate relationship, independent of her. She didn’t need to know about it. It wasn’t like a secret thing, but I have always kind of lived by the rule that I always give Lola enough information to satiate her, to answer her questions fully. And she never really asked about it, and so I never really brought it up. Now, when I became a full-time mom, um, when Lola cut ties with her dad, um, it became a little bit harder. And it became not a sneaking around, but I kind of needed to plan things a little bit better, you know, when she was like at a sleepover or when she was, you know, at a rehearsal or something. And it actually works out perfectly because uh I w I got into my cougar phase.
David:
Oh, yeah. Because erase that we can see it with your eye, the bags under your eyes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah. Well, there’s the men in their 20s and women in their 40s are pretty much looking at for the same thing.
David:
Yeah. Which is fantastic.
SPEAKER_05:
It’s perfect. Don’t look at me, don’t talk to me, don’t touch me, do that thing, and then you know what? We’re gonna high five it out. We don’t have to talk about anything.
David:
Oh, you are the gayest of all of the gay triarchers. That’s what I mean. Is like there, she’s 10 years behind us. We’ve already been through this phase, but she’s now discovering how wonderful this is. Um, are you up front on the apps about you having a daughter, or because you’re only interested in sex? Does it even matter? Or being a podcaster as well?
SPEAKER_05:
I don’t put pictures of her on. And but if someone were to ask, I would. Um, but most of the men in my demographic don’t have kids because they Because they are kids.
David:
Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05:
Um wait, actually, I don’t know if you could put this on. I’ll have to think about it. But my funniest, funniest because it’s true. The the young men love all they love it. They love it. And one of them, I had I had relations with a guy, and I later found out he was a Trump supporter. Oh God. And he voted for Trump. And so the next guy I dated, we were like sort of kissing and making out, and I went, wait, did you vote for Trump? And he goes, no. And I was like, both times. And he went.
David:
Oh no, no.
SPEAKER_05:
And I was like, oh, you weren’t old enough to vote in 2013.
David:
Oh. My God. Oh my god, you guys. That is a fantastic story.
SPEAKER_05:
True story. Because the face that he made was like.
David:
Yeah, the face wasn’t, oh no, how am I going to tell her that I voted for him the first time? The face was, I don’t know why didn’t I vote that first time?
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, and if I tell her how young I really am, is this not going to be a sure thing? I mean And I’m like Julia Robertson, pretty woman. I’m like, babe, I’m a sure thing. I’m a sure thing.
Gavin:
Yeah. And then are you ever recognized in the dating apps for being a big Broadway star and podcasting star or anything? Or does anybody give a shit? Because it’s different you’re different segments of the population that you’re uh swimming with.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah. No. No. I I honestly I’m just like, do you what do I do for a living? Do you care? Do you care what I do for a living?
Gavin:
You know, I’ve been sitting here thinking, uh is this one, I think this is a totally scintillating and fascinating conversation. And two, I’m like, is this in line with gay triarchs? And then I’m like, yes, this is very much this is upending the patriarchy. This is letting people be good people, pursuing their pleasure, being great parents all at the same time. And um, and yeah, Ellen, even if you’re just an emotional lesbian, I would say that you are a gay triarch as well.
David:
But also dating as a single person. I mean, honestly, like there are a lot of single gay dads out there, especially in the dad groups, who are who are dating and who don’t know how to introduce their kids to their new partner. I mean, we had um Jose Roland on the the other day, and and he he was talking about that too, of like he had to start dating as a dad of these kids. Yep.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah, and I have never dated another parent. Am I lying about that? No, I don’t think I’ve ever dated another parent, but which is convenient, so you don’t have to negotiate that.
Gavin:
Which is that’s nice.
SPEAKER_05:
And but I again I made, you know, in that promise I sort of made to myself to never introduce Lola. Also, Lola trumps everything, you know. Um, yeah if if something comes up, I have no emotional connection to it. You know, I’m like, I can’t do it uh, you know, at six. Sorry, you know, maybe I’ll catch up with you later. But again, because it’s not, I’m not seeking any kind of emotional connection. And that was a really hard conclusion to come to, but okay, because I think to myself, I it’s like an embarrassment of riches. I do. I have fantastic people in my life that I am I am completely fulfilled in every aspect of my life. So I’m not looking, at least right now, you know, I maybe as we get older and our friends start dying off, you know, they’re gonna just be picked off one by one. It might change. But for now, if I had an option to like hang out with you guys or go out on a date, I would absolutely just hang out with you guys. That sounds like because I’m it’s a sure thing. I’m absolutely gonna have a blast. I’m absolutely, you know, gonna be better at everything than David. Uh, you know, but it’s true. I would. It just I’m like, why would why would I not go hang out with two of my best friends and go hang out with this broski who’s, you know, probably not gonna nail it down south. You know, it’s it’s really some of them do and some of them don’t.
David:
But that’s the I think I think uh in all seriousness, like it it is it is proving that like asking for what you want and not being afraid of that is only gonna benefit you because the truth is we’re all probably wanting something different than what we’re asking for because we’re all asking for different reasons.
Gavin:
So many expectations. I think you are breaking so many trends, and it’s fantastic. Do you feel like there’s been a lot of um outpouring of yes, girl, yes, you are speaking my language? Are people coming out of the woodworks and saying this is really I think you have so many books to write?
SPEAKER_05:
Uh yeah, uh, but you know, it’s it’s wild. And and and I and I’m not put I’m not pedestaling here. I genuinely mean this. What the thing that you guys will learn about podcasting that is really kind of mind-blowing.
David:
No, no, no, condescension and pain.
SPEAKER_05:
Being from the theater world, we are used to that immediate gratification. I a laugh, applause, meeting you at the stage door. When you sit in a microphone talking to what feels like yourself, you have no idea the kind of impact that you have. And one person can hear one stupid off the cuff thing that you say and it hits them. It’s really, really true. And you’re like, oh, I don’t even remember saying that. And they’re like, no, you said that and it stuck with me. And it’s it’s very look, I literally get chills thinking about it because there are things that I’ll say about my life, and and women will message me almost every day and say, you made me realize I’m unhappy. And you made me realize that I do deserve something else. And I’m 35 and my life isn’t over. And I’m like, Did I say that?
Gavin:
Oh god. Oh God, am I responsible for this? Oh no.
SPEAKER_05:
But it’s true because I will say something and I’m like, oh, I I guess I kind of I guess I can I’m just talking, but it it hits people in a certain way. I said some, you know, I said something once to the effect of like, I’m I’m not interested in getting disrespected for someone that I lowered my standards for. And I had like 50 women reach out to me and say, Oh my god. And you’re just like, Oh, I I was just sort of talking.
Gavin:
So I was I was making up t-shirts. I was brainstorming t-shirts, and well, there you go.
David:
You know what I’ve learned from you, Ellen? That singing on pitch is not a requirement for being on Broadway.
SPEAKER_05:
Oh boy.
Gavin:
Ellen, we do need uh I think that this might be a requirement coming forward on Gatriarch. We do need to hear some horror stories. Just give us a good horror dating horror stories. Well, just give us a good one or two juicy ones.
SPEAKER_05:
I know, really honestly, within a minute and a half, if I want to have you on top of me.
Gavin:
Like it’s within within a minute and a half, you can just type in or out all of your dates, whether or not you want them to lay on you, right?
SPEAKER_05:
Right. No, it’s true. Because also with a kid, you’re like, I got three hours. That’s it. Yeah, you know, so let’s let’s figure this shit out. Um, I was on a date with a guy, and that’s the thing is that the pictures can be deceiving, and I am vain as shit. I will be the first person to admit it because I’m not here looking for at your personality. You know what I mean? I am vain. I’m a horrible vain. I am a solid six, and I demand someone to be hotter than me. And uh there was just this one guy, and I was like, I saw him, I was like, nope, you’re you’re just not my type. And I always pay for drinks. Um, if we have like a drink, I always pay because I never want to be indebted in any way. I never want to owe you anything.
Gavin:
You pay for him too, or just your own. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_05:
Absolutely. I got this, boom. That way I am I am engaged.
Gavin:
I’ve got two podcasts, I got these drinks.
SPEAKER_05:
I was even like that before. I just I like to be in control of that situation. It’s it’s honestly, it it really is a woman thing because as a woman, it it makes it it, there’s a power dynamic in it. Um so I scooted to Broadway bowling after the date, and this man left me this text that was the most evil, hateful thing. He was like, Women like you are so disgusting. You hide behind a smile and a giggle, and you try to pretend to be all nice, and you’re not. You are awful, and you you’re like, you are all the same, you’re all friendly to my face, and then you ru. And I was like, sir, I’m sorry that Broadway bowling sounded like a better time than your halatosis laden conversation.
David:
Which, by the way, Broadway bowling is in port authority, so that’s a huge dig on him, honestly. You went to port authority instead of continuing the date.
SPEAKER_05:
Exactly. I was like, what I want to hang out with. You’re like the human embodiment of a mothball. Or I’m gonna go hang out and have a freaking blasty blast at Bobby. Yeah, but this man, the text, I remember getting it right outside of Port Authority, and I just started laughing. I was like, Do you feel better? Does that make you feel better? Did you respond at all? Nope. Uh I didn’t respond. And I didn’t screen cap it.
David:
Oh, yeah.
Gavin:
And you’re you were the queen of screen capping. I know. Yeah. I know. Do you have folders for your screen caps to be able to go back and reference them faster and organize them?
SPEAKER_04:
Absolutely.
David:
Her cloud storage bill monthly gave in would blow it’s most people’s rent.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and they and the cloud is like, also, the cloud loves mine, like loves my pictures. Like the cloud gets it. It’s like, that was a good one, Ellen. That was a good one. She is good.
David:
Well, Ellen, this has just been a complete waste of time.
Gavin:
And um, we apologize to anybody who might have listened this long.
David:
We’ll get better next week. We have a much better guest next week, but um, thank you and all seriousness for joining us on our stupid little podcast. Uh, thank you for inspiring this one and making us make this one. And um, please never call me again.
SPEAKER_05:
Yeah. It honestly has been a time. So uh can we how do we hit end?
David:
Can you sort of button we can I love you guys.
Gavin:
So, in the interest of not just being a sentimental sap like I usually am with something great, I gotta tell you something that great that gives me pleasure several times a day. Oh, is I reach into my pocket.
David:
Uh-huh.
Gavin:
I’m listening. And I pull out my little thing that vibrates sometimes, also known as my phone.
David:
Okay.
Gavin:
And I love I I’m I’ve never been a gamer. I wasn’t allowed to have a look how old I am. Atari when I was a kid. Nor a Nintendo. But um, but and so I don’t, I’m not into shoot-em up games. I’m not into things that are super, super complicated because I just never had any interest in anything but Pac-Man. But I love uh two dumbass video games. You you can barely even call them video games, called Water Connect and Sort ’em all. And the Water Connect is where you just make the pipes make the water go around the screen. And sort them all is the test tubes of water that you put the blue into the green, or put the blue into the blue, and the green into the green. And I tell you, if I have 10 minutes to kill, I’m like, oh yeah, just a little moment of water connect. And I I would like to think that it’s like one of the few left-hit brain things I do. It’s just like the logic of putting it all together, it is so highly satisfying. My something great is the most lowbrow of phone games of all time.
David:
Gabin, does that feel like your own naughty little secret? And an app. Do you see that look on my face where I’m I do, and I don’t know if that’s sad or wonderful. That that’s your not that is your naughty little secret.
SPEAKER_00:
It is. My something great is my naughty little secret, which is so stupid.
David:
Oh gosh. Well, my something great is also an app. This week, um, I I want to talk about the Baby Center app. So there’s a lot of like baby general kind of apps that you can kind of track things. The reason I love Baby Center, and there are other good ones that we’ve used before, is that Baby Center is one of those apps where when pre-birth you can put in when the expected due date is, and they will follow. Um, I I think it’s like weekly, they’ll send an email to be like, hey, this week your baby’s the size of an avocado, and it’s its lungs are growing this, and its fingernails are starting to come in. It’s a really cool window into kind of how they grow. But what I love it for is that it just automatically tracks after birth, it just continues sending emails. It’ll be like, This week, your four-week old is gonna start noticing reds and blues, and it just it’s a fun way scientifically to kind of follow your kid’s uh uh progress, but also now that my kid is three and a half, it’s all usually emotional. It’s like, have you noticed your kid crying at bedtime? And then he usually doesn’t. Well, here’s why. And inevitably, that week, my kid has started crying at bedtime, so it’s really cool. I have it with both of my kids, and and and every time I get an email, I’m like, yeah, that’s exactly what’s fucking happening with me.
Gavin:
And then you also wonder, why am I being sold a bill of goods of two-year-old toys that are unnecessary and baby Einstein this and plastic toys that go bing bang boom that? I mean, how much do you think that they’re uh marketing to you as well?
David:
Yeah, I mean, for that there is like a kind of a marketing side to the app, of course, because it’s a free app, but it is certainly worth it.
Gavin:
I definitely just yucked your something great. But I but I embrace uh I I wish I had had the focus to stick with it, but I’m pretty sure by week four of my child’s birth I stopped looking at the app because I’m an asshole. And now I don’t understand my why my kids cry at bedtime, but you know, it is what it is. It’s because they don’t have a mom.
SPEAKER_01:
That’s our show. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments, you can email us at gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.
David:
Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast on the internet. David is at DavidFM Vaughn everywhere, and Gavin is at GavinLodge on nothing. Please leave us a glowing five star review wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks, and we’ll smell you next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.