Full Transcript
Wow, it is 9.46 a.m. on Thursday, and Gavin just popped open a bodega Limerita, 8% alcohol, and this is Gatriarchs.
SPEAKER_01:
Gatriarchs. What does gatriarchs mean to you? What the hell is this? What are we doing? What have you dragged me into?
SPEAKER_02:
Well, we are the we are gatriarchs, right? We are the heads of our family who are gay and we’re not matriarchs, and we don’t want to be patriarchs. Right. Patriarchs.
unknown:
Right?
SPEAKER_02:
I think it’s genius. It feels like a fun, authoritative position that doesn’t step on any other people. Like I feel like when you say, like, I’m the patriarch of the family, that feels like the little woman’s at home, which we don’t like. And if I’m the matriarch, we’re not women, it just doesn’t feel right, but like gatriarchs, we are gatriarch. We are the heads of the gay families. We’re like the crime bosses of the gay world. The alphabet mafia.
SPEAKER_01:
I mean, we are definitely tapping down crime one spilled milk at a time. So I think that that makes perfect sense. And I don’t want to pat myself on the back, which I can’t because you’re the one who came up with this, but I think that we have you, you, David FM Vaughn, FM, can I call you D F V M? DFV, DFMV, DFMV. People call me FM. FM. Hi, what is your last name again? Nice to meet you, FM. It’s the best grinder date I’ve ever been on. This is a this is a whole new subset of sociology, and I think it makes uh perfect sense, and I can’t wait to like forge this path.
SPEAKER_02:
Okay, so Gavin, I realize that nobody knows who we are.
SPEAKER_01:
Nobody knows who the fuck we are. No.
SPEAKER_02:
No. Except between like maybe like 41st and 46th Street, between like 9th and 6th Avenue, nobody knows who we are. So all of those porn shops up and down uh 9th Avenue. They know who we are. Yeah. Every time I go pick up my check, they know who I are. So let’s do a quick, quick intro of who we are. So I’m gonna start. So, all right, hi, hi, hi everyone. My name is David. Um, I am a father of two. I have two kids. I have a three and a half-year-old boy and a one-year-old girl via Gestational Surrogacy. Um, I spent the majority of my life as a uh actor, Broadway, TV, film, you know, all the things. Um, and then about 10 years ago, I said, I don’t know if I want to do that anymore. So I started writing and directing, and now I’m writing for TV and directing a whole bunch of stuff, and uh yeah, I fucking love it. And now, hey, now I can say professional podcaster to my rescue.
SPEAKER_01:
Gavin, who the fuck are you? I mean, I’m questioning that every single day of my life, let me tell you. I am originally from Colorado. I studied international affairs at the University of Colorado, wanted to go be a diplomat, and then I got distracted with um theater, and I well, actually, I got distracted by politics, went and worked on a political um presidential race, which was super cool. And then um totally his his nascent way before the presidential races, presidential races uh in the early aughts. Anyway, and then um I chucked that and thought politics took everything out of me. I’m gonna go do something really fun. So I uh literally grabbed a guitar and tap shoes, moved to New York City, and thought, I’m gonna go give this a try. And I was uh really lucky, had a really, really fun time in New York City doing um some shows, some tours a couple times on Broadway, some uh one-bit liners in TV occasionally, and then uh the whole time I was thinking, I’m having a lot of fun doing this, but I feel like there’s something else I’m supposed to be doing, um, especially when I my partner and I had kids, and um, which, by the way, are now nine and eleven years old. And then here comes the international pandemic, and that forced us to make some choices, and now I am actually uh running an arts advocacy organization called 4A Arts, the American Alliance of Artists and Audiences, and I am hoping to build it up into I’ll just cut to the chase, the NRA of arts and culture. I want to change the American narrative around arts and culture and change how Congress funds it. Um And now you’re a career woman. And now I’m a career woman, but I’ve always wanted to be on a podcast or host a podcast because ultimately what I really want to do, speaking of being a career woman, is I won’t just want to be Terry Gross. I just I just want to be Terry Gross when I grow.
SPEAKER_02:
I want that for you. So I think before we move on to our next topic, I think we need to do some speed dating. So we have prepared five questions.
SPEAKER_01:
I mean, I didn’t prepare. What are you talking about? This is just totally off the s uh off the cuff.
SPEAKER_02:
No, but we don’t know each other’s questions. True. So this is real. This is we’re gonna go as fast as we can. I’m gonna ask Gavin five questions, shotgun style, first answer that comes to your head. Are you ready?
SPEAKER_01:
Uh, this kind of thing makes me so anxious because I’m just afraid I’m not gonna be funny.
SPEAKER_02:
Yeah, you’re just gonna be tall. I’m just the tall guy. And here we go. Ready?
SPEAKER_01:
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_02:
Favorite fast food restaurant.
SPEAKER_01:
McDonald’s. Favorite musical. I want to say legal blonde, but I know that that’s yours too. Uh, what could I see? Oh rent, rent, rent. GPA in high school. 3.999. So pissed about that. Starbucks order. Uh iced vanilla dopio.
SPEAKER_02:
Guy you’d leave your family for. Um George Clooney. Ding! Just under the buzzer. Good job, good job. Good five. Good to get to know you.
SPEAKER_01:
Um, what’s your sign? Scorpio. Where would you go tomorrow if you could just pick up with or without kids and go for an adventure? Not sitting on a beach, an adventure.
SPEAKER_02:
Uh hiking through the um hiking through the highlands of Scotland.
SPEAKER_01:
Potato chips or chocolate?
SPEAKER_02:
Chocolate.
SPEAKER_01:
Dive bar or sexy club? Dive bar. Can you give us your your go-to 16 bars, please? Come on. Come on. You have to answer.
SPEAKER_02:
Use what you got from the life.
SPEAKER_01:
Oh, it’s uh that was uh that was how did you do that?
SPEAKER_02:
That has literally that has literally book that has literally booked almost every show I’ve ever been. All the way down to you know college.
SPEAKER_01:
I don’t think it ever got me a job, but I used to use it. But did you use the 16 bars of just the high notes at the end? The whole thing. 16 bars of high notes.
SPEAKER_02:
Yeah, it was technically 32. It was just like a like and then it just yeah, then then the ending part, yeah. Um but you’re not it was you’re not doing it for us though. That’s what I mean. Absolutely not never in a million years. Um but it was the it’s this perfect, it’s like it’s upbeat, it’s jazzy, but it could be contemporary, but it’s a classic. It’s and it it it makes a baritone sound like a tenor. I mean, it is the perfect lie song, and it booked me all my jobs. So um all right, well, that was super fun. I learned a lot about Gavin, which I did not know. But listen, we’re parents, and parents need some sort of vice, I guess is the right word, but like every parent needs uh something. Alcohol, it could be pot, it could be for those fucking assholes running. Fuck you and your six-pack abs. If I if every time I was stressed, I went for a run. Yeah, you I would not be doing this stupid fucking podcast. I would be shirtless on Santa Monica Boulevard.
SPEAKER_01:
All day long. Yeah. Fri a wait, Friday, for what is You’re too old to say that word. Please don’t say that again. Okay, cut that. Um being real, I uh I remember way back when I was first a dad. I remember sitting around trying not to look at my phone with a toddler who was playing with Thomas the Train, organizing her Thomas the Trains just in order of color and largest, smallest and blah blah blah, trying not to look at my phone because I felt like I hey, these are the I I I really wanted this to happen. I invested in this, right? I wanted it to happen. I want to sit with her and just watch her do her trains. And oh my god, it’s so mindless and mind, just absolutely mindless and mind-numbing. And while I was there, in the time that I was wanting to put my phone down, I was still scrolling through the the New York Times and I found an op-ed about a guy who said, I am such a better dad now that I smoke pot. And I thought, huh. And I read it, and it was all about him being like, you know what? Frankly, in my experience, I’m much more focused, I’m calmer, I don’t need to look at my phone, I’m I zone in with my kid, and I thought, that’s so interesting. Could that be me? And uh I actually have not experimented. I was not toking up with the two-year-old at nine o’clock in the morning, organizing Thomas the Train. Instead, I am um Lima Rita, Lima Bodega on Ninth Avenue at 9 a.m.
SPEAKER_02:
Yes, yes. But here’s the thing here’s two things I always tell people about parenting, and and it I think are like my secret powers is one is either be a hundred percent with your daughter watching her play with trains with no phone or be totally out. Because the try to be try to straddle the two, try to be like, oh yeah, that’s really good, honey, while you’re trying to check your email or answer a work call is a fucking nightmare. Yeah. And I think it’s actually better for them if you are just out of the room doing something separate or 100% in. And the other thing I always say is, and this is my only piece of parenting advice, although trust me, you’re gonna hear a lot of it, is prioritize yourself. And that sounds crazy. Oh my god, you’re prior over kids, prioritizing yourself and your mental health and just your your spirit, it’s like putting your mask on before you put the mask on others. You have to be in good shape to be a good parent. So if you’re burnt out, you’re unhappy, you’re bitter, you’re jaded, you are a terrible parent, whether you’re there or not. But if you prioritize yourself, and I don’t mean like don’t feed your kids or you know, don’t don’t don’t protect them. That’s not what I mean. I mean if you need three hours to yourself a week to go do whatever, and that literally can mean whatever, make that the priority first.
SPEAKER_01:
So is this actually something that you practice yourself? Because I’ve heard this advice for a long time. You absolutely have to prioritize you yourself, you need to prioritize your relationship. You need to be able to reconnect. I’m terrible at it.
SPEAKER_02:
I don’t give a fuck about my husband. He can go fuck himself. But yes, no, I I do we do this in practice. So good. Every Sunday for four hours, we get a babysitter. Now, sometimes that doesn’t happen, right? Sometimes there’s just no babysitters available, sometimes we have other plans, sometimes we just forget. But we try every Sunday to have a four-hour block that’s just us, neither of us are working. We have a babysitter, and we can go do anything we want. It can be super fancy, like massages, or it could be just seeing avatar, or just honestly going to the basement and just like hanging out watching TV, which sounds crazy, right? You’re getting a babysitter just so you can watch TV in a different room of the house.
SPEAKER_03:
Yes. Yes, yes.
SPEAKER_02:
Because I have two kids under four, and there are times when you just like, I could throw this one out the window right now, and no one would know. And that is not a great place to be. It is a common place to be. Absolutely. We’ve all considered throwing our infant out the window. Disclaimer. However, because of that, prioritizing yourself, putting your mask on before you put the mask on others will make you a better parent. And instead of sitting in front of your kid playing trains and just thinking, God damn it, goddammit, goddammit, you can be active and participating in their life because you recharged yourself. You prioritized yourself. What is your piece of advice?
SPEAKER_01:
Oh, no, no, I’m coming back to your piece of advice because I can’t get past the fact that it is a Sunday afternoon that you’re prioritizing for your babysitting time. I mean, how old do you feel when you’re like, oh, it’s a Sunday afternoon? And guess what? I am thrilled that it’s a Sunday afternoon because I don’t have time for a Friday night babysitter.
unknown:
Fuck that.
SPEAKER_01:
I’m asleep at 9.15.
SPEAKER_02:
You think I’m not watching Nailed It and Falling Asleep at 9.15 in my bed? Right. You’re crazy.
SPEAKER_03:
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_01:
Sunday afternoons, you it does bring it around to the good old days, doesn’t it? The so-called good old days, that you think a Sunday afternoon is really gonna be like that’s you need your stroll time, you need your cruising time, you need your Sunday afternoon time, just like it’s a jazz song from the 1920s. You’re you’re so young.
SPEAKER_02:
You’re just a young thing, aren’t you? Such a whipper snapper. All right, so let’s move into our top three. So this week is my week, and I chose top three worst pieces of advice you’ve received as a parent. So you and I both get nonstop unsolicited advice as parents. Nonstop. And so I wanted to organize what are the top three absolute worst pieces of advice you’ve received.
SPEAKER_01:
Okay, can I go first? I go first. And then you go after. We’re gonna go back. Okay. Uh-huh. Mine, I think, all have to do with heat or being hot. Okay. Work with me. Somebody said to me one time I know this is gonna seem indulgent and silly, but you should absolutely get a wet wipes warmer. So we got a wet wipes warmer. Let me tell you, that was the dumbest piece of shit. We we returned it. Thank you, Target. Thank you, babies RS. We returned it because that is just nonsensical. I mean, yes, the idea that your baby oh, if any of us feels a little cold swipe down there, it is a little bit of a surprise. But the sooner your baby can put up with a cold swipe, the sooner they’re not gonna freak out about it. Worst advice warm wet wipes warmer. What about you?
SPEAKER_02:
Fully agree with that. I feel the same way about bottle warmers. Give it to a cold from give it to them cold from the beginning and they will be used to it.
SPEAKER_01:
My baby had ice cubes in their baby formula one uh in their bait breast milk that we used one time. And I was like, oh, there’s ice in here. Oh well. And sh she definitely I could see a little newborn reaction, but then she just used to it and now it’s got a milkshake.
SPEAKER_02:
Okay, so my third worst piece of advice don’t wake a sleeping baby. And here’s why.
SPEAKER_01:
Okay.
SPEAKER_02:
I want to know when bedtime is, when the nap is, I want to know, as the baby does, when our schedule happens. So I know that at 8 15 p.m. both kids are asleep, and I can take a gummy and watch the White Lotus. So if the baby is sleeping too late, all I do in my head is go, now bedtime is an hour later, and then the next morning you’re gonna sleep in late, which will cause daycare to So I say keep the schedule, keep it rigid. And obviously, if they’re sick, that changes, if you’re going on a vacation or whatever, but don’t don’t wake a sleeping baby to me. Bad piece of advice. What’s your second worst piece of advice?
SPEAKER_01:
I’m sticking with being hot. Uh keeping a baby warm, that they always love to be warm. There was one time that our baby, our newborn, was absolutely freaking out. And of course, there’s so many freakouts that babies have, and that is the the biggest challenge of uh parenting is that you just don’t know, especially with a newborn, what it is they’re upset about. But uh then finally, this one particular day, this had been the first time we had ever tried it. We just un unsnapped her uh onesie, and suddenly you could see her physically breathe again. And the idea that babies always want to be warm, I don’t think is I mean it’s all Goldilocks. We all need to be Goldilocks, just you know, not too warm, not too hot. And that translates then further into advice 2.0, I guess, is um fighting my kid wearing a jacket on the way to school when we used to do our 20-minute walk to school, and she just fought me and fought me and fought me, and finally I’m like, why am I doing this? The only reason I’m putting a jacket on is so that the other parents don’t judge me. She walked with her jacket either, I don’t know, off or unzipped and it was 32 degrees. But you know what? She didn’t get sick and she was happier, and consequently I was happier.
SPEAKER_02:
Yep. So my number two, it’s a little blue, so hear me out. It’s a little grotesque. Bring it. But I have a baby daughter, 11-month-old baby daughter. I have heard nonstop from people, make sure you wipe front to back. Yes! Make sure you wipe front to back. Here’s the thing that is okay advice when you think theoretically. Poop is in your butt. I’m gonna wipe it so I don’t wipe poop into the vagina. That is what they mean. However, as you know, when a baby has a bowel movement in a diaper, the laws of physics don’t exist.
SPEAKER_01:
Or they take over and it just spreads everywhere.
SPEAKER_02:
Poop defies gravity.
SPEAKER_01:
Yes.
SPEAKER_02:
So it does. Again, I’m gonna try not to be so grotesque, but when she would have poop that was relatively liquidy, it would go up inside of that part. So the direction of which I wiped did matter because we were compromised already. So that’s not necessarily bad, bad advice, but it is stupid because we have a five-alarm fire here. Just wipe everywhere and whenever you can. What is your number one worst piece of advice you’ve received?
SPEAKER_01:
I it definitely were you have made me think about that with the pooping factor and ha always being prepared with having so many diapers and home, so many um changes of clothing and everything. Is everybody telling me you need to be prepared for anything makes me think, I don’t I am I I’m going to give up control thinking I need to be prepared for everything all the time. You just have to improvise so frequently. Stop thinking and fretting and worrying that you aren’t prepared enough, just go out and live your life, and you’re gonna figure it out. Our ancestors figured it out with a tree, a twig, some giardia-filled stream, and um and and here we are, we’re now recording a podcast about parenting.
SPEAKER_02:
I had a blowout one time with one of my children um in a mall, and I didn’t have any wipes, and so I dipped Dunkin’ Donuts napkins into my iced tea. And that’s called evolution. This episode of Gatriarch’s brought to you by Dunkin’ Donuts. We’re available for sponsorships. Okay, so my number one worst piece of advice that I’ve ever received, and I’ve gotten it more than any other advice. Sleep when the baby sleeps.
SPEAKER_01:
Yep.
SPEAKER_02:
Go I’m familiar. I’m familiar. Go fuck yourself. Because when am I gonna put shit away? When am I gonna do laundry? When do I get to eat food? That’s not teething crackers and hardened peas that have fallen on the ground. Sleep when the baby sleeps is so fucking stupid. And what it does is it leads new parents astray and says, that’s your time to recharge. Okay, great, but then your house just you keep falling further and further and further and further behind. So to the new parents out there, sleep when the baby sleeps, no, that’s fucking stupid. Yes, turn off your brain a little bit, but you have to do your shit then. What if you a lot of parents have full-time jobs, they have to prepare food, they have to prepare the next bottle. When is that next bottle gonna be prepared? So I say sleep when the baby sleeps. Stupid fucking advice. Never take it.
SPEAKER_01:
And moving forward, let’s talk about uh next week’s topic of top three, okay? Okay, what’s the next week? I want you and all of our listeners to think about the three assumptions you made about how fantastic a parent you were gonna be before becoming a parent. Oh, I love that.
SPEAKER_02:
Okay, so it’s special guest time. I’m super why are you looking at me like that? I’m j I’m just here for the ride. Okay, so that that’s what she said.
SPEAKER_01:
So my our special guest Do we need to always say that’s what he said though? Do we need to change the lexicon?
SPEAKER_02:
It’s it’s referencing The Office and Michael Scott.
SPEAKER_01:
Of course, but but for those of us uh who for those of them who haven’t necessarily watched The Office, I mean that’s what she said is just a universal, you know, uh truism now. So here on Gatriarchs, I think we should change it to that’s what he said.
SPEAKER_02:
You’re exhausting. So our special guest today is a friend of mine, former trainer of mine, personally responsible for the shape I’m in. Could be a good thing, could be a terrible thing. He is a former Broadway performer, like us, former ballet dancer, he’s a trainer, he’s an author, he he does a million things. He was on TV, he was on a reality show, but the Get to the Go. Get to the good stuff. He’s a parent, which we will talk about, but also he recently won The Amazing Race Canada season eight. Holy shit. Oh my god. We are so excited. My friend and yours, Craig Ramsay. Welcome, Craig.
SPEAKER_00:
What about changing it to that’s what they said to make it really inclusive?
SPEAKER_02:
See, we want to include everyone. Thank you. See, there you go. Swooping in with the video.
SPEAKER_01:
We’ve already made an impact. And that was great talking to you, Craig. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much for coming.
SPEAKER_02:
We appreciate you being on the podcast. Have a great day. You’ve made it really good. Well wait, Craig, you you like Gavin and I, you started in New York City at least on Broadway, right? I know you did some ballet in Canada. You’re from originally from Canada. Tell us about how kind of you got started in the kind of how did you get to Broadway?
SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, with ballet training, um, I was a ballet bun, and I always had that love and passion for acting and singing too, which doesn’t go over well when you’re in one of the most prestigious ballet schools in the whole c in the whole world. Um but uh with their definite like uh approval, I went and ventured into musical theater, and shortly thereafter I got that original pre-Broadway cast of Mamma Mia.
SPEAKER_01:
What that’s amazing.
SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, so it plucked me from Canada and took me on a uh incredible national tour of uh the US, which then should have led to Broadway. Um, but instead I got Fiddler on the roof. Um, and I I felt like after two and a half years I was ready for for that. And uh and I just yeah, it the rest is history.
SPEAKER_01:
Did your ballet training prepare you for the step touch, step touch pot of not even pot of a ray, step touching of uh Mamma Mia? Or did you ever think to yourself, this is bullshit? Or did you think to yourself, this is so much more fun?
SPEAKER_00:
You know, when I think it was Hamilton, when all of that stuff came out about uh the original cast really helping uh choreograph and stuff like that. I got so bitter for two counts of eight because I’m like, we created Mamma Mia. It was a mess, in my opinion, when the British team came over to uh North America to recreate it, if you will, for an American audience. Uh it we what they had in the UK, we had a huge influence in changing it. Uh and it was, but it was fun. I mean, come on, how lucky am I from small town Canada to then be part of a mega hip musical with like Burt Reynolds stalking our cast, J Lo was uh it was just the hot new thing, which is hilarious because I remember seeing that.
SPEAKER_02:
I had first moved to the city, seeing it on Broadway. It was the I I walked out of that show like, how dare they talk down to their audience? They are just this is such a low, like they don’t, they’re not even trying. And it’s arguably the most financially successful musical of all time. I’ve directed it. I I have fallen in love with the show since then, but I remember the time being like, how dare they step touch on Broadway? Literally, how dare they? I will also say that I saw the original reading of In the Heights, and I walked out of it being like, eh. And I’m like, are you fine? Like, so so don’t ever trust anything I say is what basically what you want to do.
SPEAKER_01:
Basically, we have no taste, and that’s fine. The show is not about taste, it’s about step-touching, step-touching, and embracing the step touch.
SPEAKER_00:
But well, do you want me to let you in on some insight that I’ve never shared about it? That’s all we want.
SPEAKER_01:
That’s all we want.
SPEAKER_00:
The original cast, um, during right before our first uh preview, if you will, we thought that that it was a ridiculous joke. Like David. Like we really were like, this is not gonna go over well. Everyone’s our careers are ruined, this is gonna be hideous. That first preview performance, when Chickatita came on, Chickatita, tell me what’s wrong. The audience went insane and they started standing up ovation. So I think the secret recipe for Mamma Mia was that you know, musicals worked so hard to get their uh songs known and in people’s heads, but all of these numbers already were. So, regardless of what the book was, when a song presented itself, everyone’s felt so confident going, I know that song, woohoo! And it just overcame their body and they felt like they were part of the show.
SPEAKER_02:
And it wasn’t, it wasn’t the first jukebox musical, but it certainly was the one that just defined the Broadway movement of like jukebox musicals are a sure thing, right? It was the one that really made a mark for it. Did you think when everyone stood up for Chickatita, did you think like maybe somebody had a heart attack in the audience? Were you worried about somebody? No, that was shitty chitty bang bang.
SPEAKER_00:
My goodness. Shitty chitty bang bang. Three three or four people pass away in the audience during that run.
SPEAKER_02:
Do you feel personally responsible for their deaths?
SPEAKER_00:
Um, I being a part of Chitty, uh that terrible show, I do. I do. I think all of us should take a little accountability for for what that is, uh, especially Adrian Noble, the director. Um, yeah, he actually he he should be sued.
SPEAKER_01:
So before we move on to oh, so many other fantastic elements of your career, which definitely included uh lots of reality shows and winning uh the uh amazing race, let’s do talk for just a second about parenting, can we? Uh you are in can you give us a little scope of what your parenting situationship is?
SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, for sure. I I’m actually going to take it back a little further, if if you if you will, to um uh the our family vacations. Rosie and Kelly at the time had, you know, the the chartered cruises for LGBTQ families. And I was a fitness expert on those cruises, and it really inspired me to want to have kids. And this is back early 2000s. And so I fell in love with parenting, if you if you will. I just loved it. I loved what it could offer me, and and um because I come from such a great home. My parents are are wonderful humans that uh really were supportive. Always. Oh, Mercedes Javid from Shah’s Sunset just is calling.
SPEAKER_02:
Fantastic, but just send him to voicemail, thank you.
SPEAKER_00:
Let me mute that. Yeah, sorry, uh MJ, I’ll call you right back. Um and and from there, uh that’s always been uh pressing on my shoulders, that kind of needed responsibility in my life. So then cut two as I get older and older, and I am in my mid-40s, so back in the day it wasn’t as common as it certainly is now, which I love. And I’m so glad the the young gays are able to uh have that um kind of on their checklists. Uh, but for me, it kept getting pushed back, pushed back. And then in my um mid-30s, my husband, his sister is a lesbian, married uh to Jen, not married at the time, because they can’t in Utah. And they were deciding to have a child, and they consulted us and said, We’re gonna need help. Like it will you be proactive in this child’s life? Immediately we said yes, but it terrified me. It’s one thing to think about it, you know, and talk about it. It’s one thing to then put it into motion. Uh, so they bravely had this child rider, and this is 11 years ago. And for all the birthdays and Christmases and such, we were there and on the phone um all the time, but uh I still had my life, right? So I was kind of like a detached parent, like kind of like I would say, um, you know, like a stepdad that only has limited engagement. Um, but then uh during the pandemic, uh, when when things went uh crazy and we were hunkering down in Palm Springs, we had the the girls and rider here uh for in Palm Springs for the first three months. And then shortly after that, I I mean all of us, I think during the pandemic got our priorities in line, right? And Brandon and I talked about it, and I he’s older than I, he’s six years older, and it just hit a breaking point where we’re like, if I’m gonna have my own, like my biological child, I’ll say we are going to do this now um and and get a surrogate. Um, but my biggest concern and Brandon’s biggest concern was how is this gonna affect Ryder, who’s already uh our child, we feel like is our child. So we presented to the girls, this is this is what we’re going to do. But we would rather um put all of that financial effort and everything into you guys and Ryder. Um, but will you move here? And this is a Friday and a Monday, they put their house for sale. And then within weeks, uh, they they left their jobs of of 20 plus years and they upped and moved from Utah to Palm Springs, three doors down from us. And uh the rest is history. So we’ve been full-time proactive um parents uh for the past three years.
SPEAKER_02:
Which is amazing because you know, I think often like Gavin and I are, I would say, heteronormative parents. We’re like, yes, we are married, we went through uh gestational surrogacy, some people do adoption, but it it it look the format looks very much kind of traditional, if you will.
SPEAKER_01:
We are so old school. This is 1957. We are living out of the world. You are old, though.
SPEAKER_02:
I am old. I’m old school. But but this is this is something important. This is why, partly why I was excited to have you is that that there are so many ways to parent that aren’t that heteronormative, surrogacy, adoption kind of uh route. And it was so so amazing that the, you know, like you said, the the the pandemic really shifted our brains in a lot of ways. And it made you it really didn’t change who you were in writer’s life, it revealed, right? It revealed that, no, I am a parent to this kid and I I want to be close to my son or and and and so that actually leads me to my next question, which is a little nuts and bolts, but I think people are interested in it. What do you guys call each other? Like when you refer to writer or your sister-in-law or or or they refer to you, like what are the names you guys use for each other?
SPEAKER_01:
And not that I want to get caught up in labels, but what do you tell other people? Like we are a family of da da. What how do you how do what do you call each other to writer and what do you say to the outer world?
SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, um, I’ll start by saying the the girls are so generous in calling it co-parenting. I never want to take away the fact that they are his guardians, you know? There is a difference. Um, and we’ve all he’s only known uncles that are his male figures. Uh from Utah, it it’s kind of tough not to demean his uh their family involvement by any means because he does have love in his life, but he hasn’t known a father. And if you only know two moms, uh, and that’s your existence, and this is what I learned from our family vacations. Uh that social influence really doesn’t have an impact on you because you know what you know. So, uncle, and we’re going to keep it consistent. I am his uncle, Uncle Brandon. Um, so the kid, the poor kid has to say, Mama Brie, Mama Jenny, Uncle Craig, Uncle Brandon. It’s a mouth like tongue tie, right?
SPEAKER_01:
So many pro familial pronouns.
SPEAKER_00:
Yeah, the kid is challenged all the time because he does look like me and and he’s like, you know, blonde and fair, and um, but it he all the time, everyone’s like, you spit that child out of your mouth, and oh, your dad. And at first, uh, for for years, uh, he would always almost get a little defensive because he found it demeaning, because there wasn’t a dad in his life. He thought that there was a negative stereotype against fathers, and and the women, the the moms probably probably overcompensating a bit, or like, you’re so lucky to have two moms. So we had to adjust too because him being out in the world, there’s nothing wrong with fathers.
unknown:
Right.
SPEAKER_00:
So he prized the the word uncle is a father type figure to him, and uh we keep it as as is. Um, but we we as a collective unit say our family’s unique, but he has um four basically four four parents.
SPEAKER_02:
And that’s the thing we we forget is that like we can talk about each other in a variety of ways, but he is now tasked, he’s burdened with the fact that he has to describe his family to his classmates, to other nine-year-olds, to teachers. You know, the thing that uh blew my mind is when we started having kids, like forms. Forms of the pediatrician, who are the emergency context, relationship to patient. Those are not as easy to say, right? Who’s the mom, who’s the dad, who’s the relationship? Oh, that’s my mom. Well, now it’s a little different, right? If you are the first person they want to contact, you know, you have to put something on the form. So that is something that’s sometimes hard to translate for maybe heterosexuals, is that like that sort of exhaustion of having to constantly re-explain how your family works and who is who, uh it it can it can take a little toll a little bit on you.
SPEAKER_00:
Well, orientation, even for for Ryder at his school, um, it’s a very inclusive and accepting school. But uh people are gonna make mistakes. And in the um president uh uh of the school kept saying, or principal, I should say, principal said, uh, your your mom and dad kept saying, Oh, your mom or dad, and and that, and I said, It ha you really should change that to parent, your parent. Um, because he looks at us as a parent. It doesn’t need to be labeled as a father.
SPEAKER_01:
Nice parent can be a much more encompassing role, like a label. A parent mi many different people can play the role of parent without necessarily being labeled specifically a mother, father, or uncle and aunt, but like an uncle and an aunt can be parenting as well.
SPEAKER_02:
I’m currently writing for a a preschool show, and we made the decision to, whenever we refer to the parents, we say you’re grown-ups. And that’s that was on purpose because some people are living with their grandmother, and that is their grown-up. So we wanted to make sure we had a term that was all-encompassing and inclusive, but didn’t feel strange. And so we often use grown-ups. But that’s another that’s another kind of uh Did you just put a shot of Bailey’s in your coffee, Craig?
SPEAKER_00:
No, yes I grabbed a pen because I’m writing that great tip down. I’m gonna start using that.
SPEAKER_02:
We’re changing the world. Changing the world. Even super famous people like Craig who can we uh just slightly shift topics a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:
We look at the now.
SPEAKER_02:
We are gay in a lot of ways, but we are very gay for the amazing race. Now we are not as familiar with Amazing Race Canada. We had a previous conversation about uh Phil, the Amazing Race hosts of America, his sometimes he walks the dog on camera, and that was a little bit of conversation we had. But tell us a little bit about I know you’ve had a million interviews about this already, but I am so excited to hear kind of your Amazing Race journey in a nutshell and and and how it even happened.
SPEAKER_00:
Good question. Um, so let me take you back to 2019. Uh Catherine Reeford, who uh uh the Broadway uh people should know who that is. She was in 42nd Street, Oklahoma, and um just infamous in the whole world, you know, with things because she has a history with like Justin Timberlake and Jeff Goldblum and and such and pop culture. But um, she also uh has terminal brain cancer and nine years ago was diagnosed with this and given two to five years max to live. And uh and she’s such a medical miracle, and and she’s got two beautiful kids. She has a lot to live for, but her passion for dance and um and and the stage has certainly kept her alive. And we did Romeo and Juliet together. We were invited back to the Royal Winnipeg Ballet after a 20 plus year uh absence uh from the company um because they wanted to honor our acting and our artistry, because Royal Winnipeg’s always known for more than just ballet, right? And so when they had us back, uh they wanted to feature Catherine and how strong she is, but she’s compromised. Like she has no short-term memory. There were so many things that we had to do as a pair behind the scenes, and that I had to challenge her with okay, this is the the counts of eight beforehand. This is what you have to do dance-wise. How terrifying as performers. Can you imagine? It’s our actor’s nightmare.
SPEAKER_02:
Like is walking on stage and going, I’m in this show and the music’s playing. I’m kind of sure where I’m going, but I actually have no idea. So she’s living that.
SPEAKER_00:
And she forgot that you can’t speak in a ballet. Like she literally is on stage, her brain is trying to rewire, and and she’s like, No, and she gives us, and the whole audience is like, she just vocalized.
SPEAKER_01:
She is giving her backstory in the midst of her dancing. Maybe it’s actually a stroke of genius. Might be an improvement. Yeah, it might be an improvement.
SPEAKER_00:
Yeah. So what we did after that was notice Catherine’s brain function working better. Her her memory, her short term, her ability to memorize, communicate, form sentences, all of this stuff. So we wanted something, we knew that a challenge was important for Catherine to overcome for her longevity. So then I presented to her, knowing people in the past that have done Amazing Race, and they say it’s one of the most satisfying check marks you can have in your life, but it’s also one of the most traumatizing because it is so hard. I was like, Well, why don’t we do Amazing Race Canada? And she she thought, she pondered like this, and she’s like, Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:
Yes.
SPEAKER_00:
And because the manifestations are so strong with us, and this is something that I hope all listeners um take away from this is if you envision something and you and you surrender to it, the likelihood of the universe aligning something in that theme is going to happen. So we decided if we are going to put our name forward, we have to be ready to do this. And we did, and then um we we got asked to do the show in early 20 uh 20, and then the pandemic. We were packed and ready to go, and the pandemic hit, we’re familiar, and it was delayed, and it was terrifying because uh we didn’t know every three months Catherine gets a c an MRI, and if it’s stable, she has another three months. That’s it. And lucky for all of us, it Catherine’s still with us. And two years after the pandemic, we got back to it and we packed up. Um, and we we went on the most crazy adventure you can ever imagine. Um, and and we won.
SPEAKER_02:
And you won. And that is incredible. There’s something I don’t know why when I watch the show, I don’t know if you feel this way. I love the show. I love watching it. I imagine myself being on it. I think I I have all the fun you would imagine. My big question, and I’m this is this is so small, but to me, I’m always thinking about this is you know, we’ll watch them, they’ll finish a leg, and then they cut to the next day when you’re starting the next leg. In that meantime, in the time between shots or whatever, is there like Kiki happening with the cast? Are you guys like partying at the hotel bar? Are you sequestered? Are you San cell phones? Like, what what is when you finish a leg, you land on the mat, you have your little thing, you do your talking heads, and then you don’t shoot again until the next day. What is that time frame like? What happens then?
SPEAKER_01:
You don’t have like an equity required time off between where you get to sleep and have a meal and everybody and Do you have like a blue cot you can lay on that’s very uncomfortable and in the way of everyone in the dressing room? With it, yes, absolutely, with basic requirements of comfort.
SPEAKER_00:
Or equity rep or equity quot cot. No. Yeah. Uh no. So the answer is you are isolated. And pre-pandemic, I would imagine it would have been refreshing to be isolated with no phone, no TV in a hotel room with uh a loved one, should be a loved one if you’re going on the race with. Um, but uh with the pandemic, it was triggering for all of us to be isolated again, right? But when you step off that mat, your mics are taken away, a producer takes you away from everything else, everyone else, and you don’t see those people again until you start racing um the for the next uh leg. Uh and yeah, you it’s it’s it’s terribly lonely, but it’s also a great opportunity to um uh bond with whoever you choose as your race partner.
SPEAKER_02:
I can I can imagine there’s a lot of jerking off in the lobby bathroom.
SPEAKER_00:
You can’t you can’t use the lobby bathroom. Like it I I mean it it’s you’re like sequestered to your room room. Correct. Wow. Yeah, yeah. I mean they do a ri in Canada. I can’t speak for the American uh show, but I which is probably well never mind. I think it’s the same. I think a lot of the formats the same, but um the producers did an incredible job in making it authentic, and and what you see is what you get as far as like who’s placing what and and like they can’t eliminate the main themes, but it is really tough to do a show where you’re filmed so much and unlike anything I’ve ever done, and it’s so limited, right? You like for instance, they didn’t even mention I’m gay, they didn’t mention I have a husband, nothing. I was there to support Catherine’s story, which I’m proud about, but um you really are um narrowed down to just uh a very simple character on Amazing Race.
SPEAKER_02:
Yeah, you often see like brothers, twins, coworkers. Now, how did that feel? Did you feel somewhat minimalized or or hidden at all? Or did you just feel like Catherine’s story was more important, or did you feel like you did you feel a little slighted?
SPEAKER_00:
I mean, all the above. Um, I I I’m there for Catherine in this. Uh there’s no other partner I could have done this with. Um, but I I do and I’ve expressed this as I’m so grateful for the whole experience in that. But why was I not mentioned at all? I mean, I know my aerob, I did this aerobics challenge, and that outed me certainly, the 80s aerobics. Everyone from coast to coast knew I was whole I’m homosexual from that performance.
SPEAKER_02:
Look at her dance to that music. She knows what she’s doing.
SPEAKER_01:
The best ass south of 14th Street or kitchen uh uh Winnipeg. Yeah, Winnipeg.
SPEAKER_00:
Oh, but but that I I really wish that it was uh further expressed um and and shown because I’m very proud of who I am, and I think the community slightly came down on me. Like that extra magazine had didn’t even run an article on us, and it’s the fourth of the five past seasons, the fourth season that an LGBTQ person has won the Amazing Race Canada, which speaks volumes in what kind of talents and things that we had as a community have um been able to overcome. We can do anything.
SPEAKER_02:
Yeah. And and and and I think part of it is also we are now in a in the next stage, I think, of representation where like we wanted to participate in a variety of things TV shows, uh visibility and game shows. But now we’re going from like, there’s the gay guy, to like, well, beyond that, what what are they also? They are they are uh an author and a dancer and a this and a and a father, right? A father to writer, a husband to Brandon. And so I think that that is another thing that we often feel is like, oh, but you’re just not the gay guy who won. You’re Craig, who is a father and who is a husband and who is uh super famous, and um, and who is$250,000 richer from having been on the Amazing Race Club. Now, to be fair,$250,000 Canadian, which I think is like 18 bucks here. Is that what that is? Tax oh motherfucker, tax-free, but still Canadian, so yeah.
SPEAKER_00:
And a Silverado uh ZR2, if you will.
SPEAKER_01:
Oh is that a truck? Canada oh Canada.
SPEAKER_00:
Oh yeah, it is a truck. Listen, I shocked everyone. Our crew, when we jumped into that Silverado, and I’m very familiar with driving trucks because I just love them. I knew that Silverado in and out. In fact, I I think I switched partners, and Catherine was no longer my partner. That that ZR2 was my partner, and I drove the crap out of that.
SPEAKER_02:
You dumped her on the side of the road, skidded off, shot dirt in her face, and you were gone.
SPEAKER_00:
We won that leg, the the Silverado leg, um uh, which was uh episode nine in um New Brunswick. So Silverado helped. You hear how my voice is even lowered when I’m talking about the Silverado.
SPEAKER_01:
We’re very tied into how we sound constantly here, whether it’s resonant or mask top or mask whatever. And so, yeah, we we get it. We we are with you 100%. So, in the interest of you mentioned manifesting uh this experience on the amazing race, which is I think it’s fantastic, and you actually specified you want to share that message with listeners that uh listen, you have to put it out there what you believe and what you want to um see for yourself. What is your um advice to parents that might be along the lines of manifesting? But like we talk a lot about uh what is the advice? What is the unsolicited advice you can get from Gatriarchs here?
SPEAKER_00:
Don’t control the outcome. Like even with me wanting to fulfill my parenting uh desires, right? Uh did it uh did it end up looking like what my brain would have taken over and foreseen? No, it it doesn’t. But is it the most satisfying thing in my life? Absolutely. Uh so it throw throw out there what you want, but also just go for the ride and let the universe take you on that roller coaster ups and downs, um, and and have it guide you to what’s gonna be most appropriate for you and your child’s needs.
SPEAKER_02:
That’s amazing. And you know what? It reminds me of uh one of my favorite quotes of all time, and this it’s gonna get real gay, so prepare yourself to bring it. Anne Ranking once said to me, or I was in the room when she said, Um, you’ll always achieve your dreams, just never in the way you planned. And I think about that every time something happens in my life. Because I think about becoming a parent, being on Broadway, being a writer, all of the things that have happened in my life have never once happened the way I planned, and the way I kind of played the movie in my head, but it happened, and I look back and I’m like, I I would have never planned this, but oh my god, am I so glad? Like you’re saying, that this is the way it happened, and I was ready for it when it came, but it wasn’t the the the thing I had prescribed already.
SPEAKER_00:
Can I tell you my aunt? I have an Ann story. Please. Oh, but please we could go of less, yes. Go. Okay, faucet tour, but uh the one, the most recent one, right? Uh like I don’t know, eight years ago or whatnot, rehearsing 42nd Street Studios. My friend uh Liz played uh and was musical director, so she she was playing the piano. She asked me to come page turn. Terrible idea, terrible. Um, so I’m sitting there and I’m just way behind. And Anne is aware of everything. And she she says, please focus on the page turning, um, unless you think you can come up and do better.
SPEAKER_02:
Well, oh shit. Well, she called you out and did you answer the phone?
SPEAKER_00:
Oh yeah. We’re gonna see it. And here takes a stand. I went up there and I took the stand. I I totally went like whack with my leg behind my head, like whack, and here on to like full on 210, like that. And all she did, and then I just walked slowly like back to the the bench, and she goes, she just looked at me like that, and she goes, moving on.
SPEAKER_02:
Wow, honestly, no, and having known Annie as long as I have, that is high praise right there. Moving on. She didn’t have the last word, she was like, you know what? I’m correct. Which I’ve never heard, but I will keep forever. A two ten. A 210, and you know what? I the fact that you have the balls and the audacity to take the challenge, because most people would have just cowered. Most people are like, yes, ma’am, but you because she is, you know, listen, I’ve worked with her for a long time. She is intense, the the most intense person I’ve ever worked for, but never in a I don’t know if your experience, but never in a mean way, even though it may have come across as mean, always in the I want the best. I want the best out of all of you.
SPEAKER_01:
And it is terrifying. So moving on from this incredible example of uh name-dropping, and I worked with Anne King, well, I uh Anne Ranking, but I call her Annie, but I’ve worked with Annie for years. Can you tell us, give us one or two anecdotes from your um performing days of this crazy thing happened on stage one time?
SPEAKER_00:
Sure. I mean, I’ll give word to my cat story. Do you want my cat’s? I absolutely want your cat story. Okay. So Rumtum Tugger uh is on stage the majority of the time. Uh, there’s only one short break to pee. Uh, and I always took that opportunity. Susie Um McMonagall was uh there as Grizabella, and she um she always distracted me, and this one um was a little too long, so I started uh missing my time frame to go pee. So I rushed it, and um, as I was doing that, um, and you know, the costume’s really tough to get on and off, especially for me, because I’m I’m big, I’m a I’m a big pussy cat, right? And I hear over the the speaker, Craig, you’re late for your places, uh Craig Ramsey to the rafters, Craig Ramsey to the rafters. So I had to run up and I’m like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh. Just made it in time, and I’m I’m standing there and I’m a little chilly, right? Like I’m a little cold, like I’m a wet cat. Uh-oh. And I look down and I’m coming in from the ceiling in this production in in Chicago, and I see dripping coming from my fur. You know, the fur vest that pops up like this. So I piss soaked my fur and I peed all into it. Barely a drop probably got into the toilet, and the all the kittens are underneath me, and it’s raining. And I’m lowered in and I’m in shock. And it on a good day, it’s hard for me to remember cats’ lyrics, right? It just doesn’t make any sense. So I’m trying to sing the song, the Rumtum Tugger, push the cats away, and I’m like, don’t come near me like this. And and then someone behind one of the kittens in in the show has to flip the collar. And so all the kittens are in front of me, and she comes behind. I’m like, no, it gets flipped and piss soaks the whole cast.
SPEAKER_02:
Oh Craig’s so glamorous, so glamorous. As a fellow performer, we know that this is why we do it is the things that go wrong. I think that might be my favorite story. That is fantastic that you soaked an entire company of professional dancers with your own piss.
SPEAKER_01:
Do you think Anne Reinking ever pissed her costume or soaked her companies? All the time.
SPEAKER_00:
I mean, come on. You have to. It’s like she got the Tony Award. Yeah, piss always comes with a Tony Award.
SPEAKER_02:
And and that’s it. And and that is, I think, where we need to leave this because that is piss comes with a Tony Award, just in quotes, and then Cry Gramsay on the bottom. Thank you so much for joining our stupid podcast and talking about all the things. We are so happy to have you here.
SPEAKER_01:
Um and may I say thank you for representing uh families that are making the world a better place and expanding the notion of how to again make the world a better place and make help kids be seen, heard, and loved in ways uh that are um uh leading us into the future.
SPEAKER_00:
Parenting is the biggest responsibility ever, uh, but it’s also the most rewarding.
SPEAKER_02:
Thank you so much. So let’s close the show with something great. Gavin, what’s something great that’s happened to you this week?
SPEAKER_01:
This morning, uh so last night we had a little tension going to bed when I was putting my kids down. And because it had just uh because it was the end of the day and and I am still so lucky that this morning as I was on the train uh before 6 a.m. to come down and record this fantastic uh episode with you, that I was texting with my daughter, who is now of age that she has her own phone. I know we’ll re we’ll return to that. But she did text me, love you, love you, love you, and then gave me four heart emojis and a poop. And that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02:
She knows you. She knows you. She does. She knows you love love and poop. Four hearts and a poop. Feels my whole being. Well, I my something great, I I I was hoping it would be very different than yours. Like maybe it’s an app or whatever, but something similar. So I it in our kind of household, the way my husband and I divide up chores, like I tend to cook all the time. I’m the one who prepares all the meals or whatever. And right, you know, my three-year-old fucking hates everything I make, right? But but whatever. Um I made dinner and we were all just kind of sitting around, and uh, my son’s name is Emmett, and Emmett just kind of looked at me and he went, Daddy, you’re such a good cook. And I was like, Thank you. Yep. Keep in mind five minutes before that, I was ready to drop him off at the fire station. Because he was an asshole. Because he was a fucking asshole. But he just it’s those things where like nobody prompted him, nobody said, say hello to your grandmother. Yeah. He just was thinking about dad cooks all the time. We bake together Dolly’s things. Dad, you’re a good cook. And I was like, fuck, that’s great. It makes it worth it. It really does. It makes it worth it. And that’s our show. The Gatriarchs Podcast is produced by us. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments, which we always take, you can email us at gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.
SPEAKER_01:
Or DM us on Instagram. Our handle is at Gatriarchspodcast. On the internet, David is at DavidFm Vaughn everywhere. And Gavin is at Gavin Lodge on nothing. Thanks. We’ll see you next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.