Full Transcript
And she lives in Portland, Oregon. She owns her own lawyer place.
Gavin:
What is law firm?
David:
I’ve watched Legally Blonde enough you think I know how to say law firm. And this is Gatriarchs. And I was thinking, you can’t be mean to Alexa. Like, but but why not? Right? Because I realized that we yell at her the same way. If she does something wrong, we’re like, turn the volume up. Like we are mad at her. And he’s emulating that. And I was like, oh shit. Do I have to watch how I talk to the robots in my house?
Gavin:
Oh, they really do. I mean, of course they’re listening to us all the time. They mean the kids and obviously the robots. But does she ever talk back to you or talk back to your kids?
David:
Do you know what I discovered the other day? I went into the bedroom and it’s next to my kids’ bedroom. So I didn’t want to be loud because they were sleeping. So I kind of whispered. I was like, hey, Alexa, turn on the bedroom lights. And her response was okay. It was terrifying. The fact that she mimicked my whisper to me, but as a robot. But anyway, so I was just thinking about kindness because I I feel like we are kind people. You and I, this is why we get along. Like we’re we’re whoever we are, but like we’re inherently, I think, good people and kind people.
Gavin:
But also, and also bitchy though, like bitchy at the right time and critical and judgmental at the right time.
David:
Horrible, but nice. But kind. Um, and I was thinking about there are certain kinds of kindness that really make me want to walk into traffic. And and I was thinking about this at Wendy’s. Hold on, the story will make sense. Okay. So I was at Wendy’s for the eighth time this week. And there’s yeah, there’s a guy who works at Wendy’s, nice guy, and he’s the one who takes the money. He’s the first window. And every time I see him, he goes, Hey, how you doing? I say, Good. I hand him my card. He looks back, he’s like, having a good day? I said, Yeah. He does the thing, he gives me my receipt. He goes, Did I make your day better? I said, Yeah, I yeah, I guess. He was like, Good, because that’s what I want to do. Make your day better, okay? And he gives me a big thumbs up. And I’m like, I’m gonna run this car into the building now. And I’m like, why do I feel why do I feel such anger at this man who’s trying to be kind?
Gavin:
And yes, you he brings out the unkindness in you through his just oh I mean, it’s a little burdensome, frankly, to to ask him to he has no idea how your day is going. I mean, maybe you just like ran over a squirrel and you feel terrible, but he’s not somebody you know, so you’re not gonna respond to him and say, actually, I’m having a really terrible day. You’re like, I’m just trying to get my burger for the eighth time this week. Don’t you already know me? You should know that I’m pretty consistently like crabby and haggard.
David:
What I really want to say to him or somebody like that is like when he’s like, Hey, how you doing? Be like, I shed a little bit of blood this morning, kind of worried, can go see my gastroenterologist. And uh, yeah, my uh my bank cold, and I think we’re gonna lose the house. And you know, my kids, my kid’s grandmother just died, and um, and it just like lay everything I can on him, just really lay it in on him and and start crying, maybe, and and ask for a hug and see see how that works.
Gavin:
My grandmother was a really kind of what do I don’t want to call her a salty broad, but yet I kind of want to call her a salty broad. Like she was a very intellectual person who kind of like you think of her as like having a cigarette and a wise crack all the time. And um, she couldn’t abide people’s insincere efforts at saying, How’s your day going? kind of thing. And I remember um she was proud of the fact that when somebody would say, Hey, have a great day, she would turn to them and say, I just may decide not to. And she wasn’t a mean person, she really wasn’t. Um, but she was, you know, salty and sh and she just couldn’t abide that. You know, that those that’s where you get your salt content from. I’m much less salty than she ever was, that’s for sure. But I don’t know. When you see when you’re just in passing with people and you’re just moving by, I a smile and an acknowledgement of your existence is kind of all I need, and all I really want to give too, because we’re just trying to get by with our days, you know?
David:
And and also the thing I want to explain. So there’s a two venues that do this consistently. One is Wendy’s. Listen, Godspeed. You have somebody, oh, person who works at Wendy’s and is happy with their life. But B, at Wells Fargo. So I do some banking at Wells Fargo.
Gavin:
This is not a plug for Wells Fargo. Allah’s not a big thing.
David:
No, unless you guys start to sponsor us, then you know what? We love Wells Fargo. But I do a lot of uh transactions in the bank, and they are clearly they have a corporate mandate to ask like six questions. And this is how every experience at Wells Fargo goes. Hey, how you doing today? Great, I want to make a deposit. I hand them my cash. So like, great. Day going well. Yes, thank you. And then the follow-up question, not working today. I yeah, I I I just I’m I just doing the transaction. Pretty crazy weather outside, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it is non-stop questions where I just want to grab them by their cheeks and pull them really close and whisper this relationship is just about the this money transaction. I appreciate how you’re doing, but I want you to say how you’re doing. I want to say good, and I want that to be the end of our personal conversation until it’s have a great day, and I walk out. I love you, you love me, let’s not make this more than it is.
Gavin:
Now we’re both Northeasterners, but we both grew up outside of the Northeast. I grew up in Colorado where people are very, very smiley when they say, Do you want some fries with that? But I don’t find it burdensome. I mean, going back there after living in New York City for so long, sometimes I would look over my shoulder and think, What do you want from me? Why do why are you smiling?
David:
That’s what it is. It’s what do you want from me? Why do I have to be involved in this? If it was just fake kindness that didn’t involve me, fine, be fake around me. But it’s like, hey, no work today. It’s like, I don’t want to talk about my work to you. Or what do we what is this thing? I grew up in the South and it’s all it’s all veneer, but it doesn’t require a lot from you. It’s like, oh, bless your heart, right? And we know what that means. Right. But I bring this up because our kids, right? We have back to the kids, back to the kids. Back to the whole fucking point. Um, we have we both have two kids, and I think part of our jobs as parents is like, how do we like instill kindness? Or is that even possible, right? Can we increase the likelihood that we will have kind kids or they will act kindly? Or is it just like they would can we model it, or is it just like inherent? Like we either get good kids or or shitboxes.
Gavin:
I mean, I think so much of is it like all parenting is that we have to model it and they have to hopefully they will model our kindness, you know. I mean, I think that asshole people have asshole kids generally. I mean, I can totally spot that. If there’s an asshole kid, I’m like, uh, it’s probably a reflection of their parents, frankly. But um, it also makes me think when I ever think about kindness, I don’t know necessarily what the answer is to bringing about kindness in your in your kids. But I do know that whenever I get in a tizzy, because in we’re in, you know, hyper competitive mode on the playground where you hear that this kid’s already studying algebra and this kid’s already swimming a 200-meter individual medley relay or whatever, or this kid is um, you know, getting tutored to this, and you’re like, oh my god, my kid’s never gonna be in Harvard and they probably can’t even swim two laps and whatever. And then you th you have to just dial it down and think, I just want my kid to be kind. Just just be nice, just be kind. Because being able to swim or being able to do algebra or being able to go to Harvard doesn’t necessarily mean you’re gonna be a happy person. And we just want our kids to be happy. Who cares what their career path is? They want we want to be happy. And I think kindness is a great uh uh moderator of what your happiness level is.
David:
I think. But Gavin, according to your logic, if your kids do something assholery, does that mean you’re to blame?
Gavin:
I mean, I’m a kind person, but I can be an asshole sometimes for sure. So I Oh see, that’s the that’s the time I would toss it to my husband.
David:
I was like, oh no, when my kids are assholes, it’s my husband’s fault. Um we’re gonna go with that. But just remember, Elle Woods got into Harvard and nobody thought she would.
Gavin:
That’s that’s true. That’s true. That I mean, she exceeded expectations, but Elle Woods is a kind person, isn’t she?
David:
I mean, she’s a little self-obsessed and you know, no, I think she’s kind. Listen, what this could be a legally blonde fan cast for a hundred episodes. I’m okay with that. But yeah, but but but no, El Elle Woods had the capacity for kindness, but didn’t need to use it in the beginning because she was rich and beautiful. Yeah, that’s true. And then she learned, she’s like, I’m so much more powerful beyond this. Anyway, let’s not talk about that. Let’s talk about um parents and being gay parents and how we are two men who are raising children. Gay Ven, who’s the mom? I mean how many times a day do you get that question? Yeah’s the mom, who’s the mom, who’s the mom at home, who’s the mom in bed, who’s the mom with the kids? Yep. There’s no mom people. That’s the point of being gay.
Gavin:
And also when you’re outside and people say to you, Oh, is it mom’s day off? And um that that is something that all gay parents go through, and we all post about it on Facebook, and we all get super self-righteous about it, and we get so pissed that um somebody assumed that one, um, we are married to a woman, or rather, the you know, the other parent of the kid is a woman, and two, that um we’re trying to do somebody a favor by, you know, doing our own parenting responsibilities. But yes, the gender uh roles are really uh it’s really ingrained in us. It’s in our genetic makeup to assume that there will be somebody who does the mom part and somebody who does the dad part. And our superpower, our gay superpower, I’m definitely taking that from you, is that we have to do it all. Um I mean, often I feel like the mom, I feel like the mom and the man in my relationship. And then sometimes I feel like the dad and the wait, what what’s I I’ve lost point of my. You’re getting lost in your own metaphor, boo-boo. But there was one time preserver. There was there was one time that um my partner and I were having a you know a little bit of a parenting spat. I made some demand of his, like, why can’t you do more of this? Or why can’t you do more of that? And he said to me, It’s because I’m like the gay uncle. I was like, oh no, you didn’t.
David:
He’s never said that again. Yeah, you you made sure of that. But that but when I say gay superpower, what I mean is that like we as gay people from the outset have to talk things out before we do things. Where there is no kind of there are no existing lanes that we could just default to. And that starts, listen, if I’m gonna go blue, it starts with sex. Totally. There is a default assumption when two a man and a woman go to bed, what is going to physically happen. When two men go to bed together, there has to be some sort of discussion because there is no default, right? And I think that goes all as as silly as that sounds, it goes all the way up to parenting, where I feel like if nobody said anything, there is a somewhat default nature to who does what in a heterosexual parent parenthood. But for two men who when you say the mom things and the dad things, first of all, we uh uh inevitably get to kind of misogyny, right? Of like, this is what the woman does. Totally. But who does, who picks up the kids, who is maybe uh more of the taskmaster, who spends more time at work, who is the one who cuddles them to bed, who is the one who buys the groceries and cooks the food and does there’s all of these things that there is no default for. So when two men start raising babies, all of a sudden these tasks are are moved around, and then that question comes up of like, who’s the mom? And then as you know, it’s hard to define because when I think about our our our family structure, my husband is probably more than nine to fiver worker, and I have more time. So when kids are sick or they need to pick up and drop off cooking food, I do that stuff. So am I the mom? Right, but then there’s other things that it it flips and flops. So that whole like vernacular of who’s the mom is so fucking stupid, yeah, so misogynistic. It is so we don’t need to use that, but it but it comes up all the time. People ask us all the time.
Gavin:
And people, especially when they’re curious and genuinely curious, they they love us, they they support us, et cetera, et cetera, and they might be making the joke like so who’s the mom? It one, it I really think that there is inherent misogyny in there because it’s kind of like who’s the sub I subservient one, who’s the one stuck home, who’s the one uh picking up after everything else, and therefore less important than the one out making the money, I suppose.
David:
So that’s what I mean is that there’s this inherent misogyny, even in how I feel like uh we as gay people kind of treat uh sex in a way. I keep going to sex, am I like super horny today? What’s going on? But when we talk about like it is Thursday, I feel like it is Thursday, uh sexy Thursday, I believe is what they call it. But but when I think there is an inherent kind of um uh more negative view towards gay men who bottom than top. And it is rooted in misogyny in that like if you are the one receiving, yeah, if you are the one who is doing the woman thing, then you are inherently less valuable or less respected than the man. And it is so we do this as gay men, right? We we we there is that tone in I think in in the gay world, and and I hate that for us, right? Like, but I want in parenting, it just it can’t exist because we can’t maybe some gay couples do divide the worlds exactly how they’re traditionally done in heterosexual land, but it’s I don’t think it’s possible as two men to do that, which I think it becomes our superpower because we have to negotiate and discuss these things, which makes us better parents.
Gavin:
So last time we chatted, I suggested bringing up the top three things you thought you would do as a parent before you became a parent. I suppose mine are mostly about embargoes. Oh, I’m never gonna do this, I’m never gonna do that, I’m never gonna do this. Um, I definitely said we would never let the mouse get its claws in us. We were not gonna be a Disney family. But man, those claws are real. They are sharpened, they uh their little capitalist um, you know, desires get sunk right into our kids. And uh with us, it started with Frozen. And um, even though Frozen was out before my kids were born, um, but still, um, those claws run deep. So Disney, we said we wouldn’t do it, and then suddenly our house was completely covered in princesses. Um, I thought that we would always be like organic eaters and cut down, uh, not go too overboard with sugar. I wasn’t gonna have an embargo on sugar, but um, think that we would always be um, you know, super healthy and whatnot. And then there just comes a time where you’re like, no, no, no, we are definitely stopping for Mickey D’s. You’re gonna love it. You’re gonna be poisoned for life. And poisoned for life, I mean, because you’re gonna want to eat McDonald’s for the rest of your life, as frankly, I do too. It’s absolutely the best French fries. Third, of course, I swore there were gonna be so many things, frankly. This is terrible, rest her soul, that I was gonna not do that my mom did. Um, and my mom was a great mom. She is not with us, unfortunately. Rest in peace, but she was a fantastic mom. I mean, just look at me. But there, she was a she was an inherent yeller. She just kind of yelled a lot. Now, consequently, we got over our yelling really quickly. We kind of yelled, we got it out of our system, and we moved on with our lives, right? Um, and now, oh, I can I can I can see it in myself, I can see it, and worse, I can see it in my daughter. She yells at me, I yell at her, but then we just kind of get over it and we move on, and four seconds later, we’re fine. So maybe we don’t have pent-up like Yankee New England um emotions stuck inside of us. Hopefully that’s a good thing.
David:
Listen, we’re just passing along the trauma like good white people. Okay, so my top three, we actually have one crossover. So uh uh in third place, I have what which is a crossover, no sugar. When I first we first had our first kid, we were just insane about it. We were like, no sugar, no sugar till they’re three, no sugar till they’re three. On his first birthday, I made my son an applesauce cake with no sugar, and he cried the whole time because it was so disgusting. Now, with our second, we’re like, eat whatever the fuck you want. Like, we are so I and I swore I would never be that parent. Uh, in second place was a clean house. When I would go into parents’ houses before I was a parent and I would see stuff on the floor and everything, I was like, these people are disgusting. I’m never gonna live like that. Are you kidding me? Guess what? We have rice upstairs right now in the dining room that’s been there for I can promise you, at least five days. And then, and number one was being angry. Um, I don’t have a temper. I’ve been pretty even killed. I laugh most things off. Listen, when you’re called faggot from fifth grade on, like you just kind of things kind of roll off your back. But your kids will do something that it seems so innocuous from the outside, and it won’t make my blood boil in a way where I’m like, get up the stairs, or like put on your fucking shoes. Like you’re just like, I go to 10 and I’m like, oh, am I? Do I have repressed anger? Right. What is going on? When you have kids, especially when you have two kids, two under four, which is what I have, yikes, something will happen. And it’s usually in the morning when we’re getting ready to go to school, and no one wants to put on their shoes. And I’m like, yeah, I’m just gonna go walk into traffic right now, or drop you guys off at the fire station and just make this a little bit easier for everyone. But yeah, number one for me, anger.
Gavin:
I get so irrationally angry over the dumbest shit. Speaking of shit, one thing that absolutely drives me crazy is we’re about to walk out the door or just about to go to bed, and my daughter, my daughter’s like, uh, I need to go poop. And I’m like, no. And of course, I don’t want to give her a complex that she can’t like go take a poop because I think, hey, being able to poop when you need to poop, especially in public, that’s something I absolutely teach my kids is you gotta be able to poop in public. Life’s gonna be so much easier. You gotta tell her, poop is sin coming at it. Well, it I that makes me irrationally angry. And I unfortunately am not the greatest in the moment of being like, Gabe, take a step back. This is ridiculous. Let her go poop.
David:
Okay, so our next guest is the real deal. Um, she’s an actual attorney, like Elwood’s level attorney. She owns her own law firm in Portland, Oregon with her wife Jen. Uh, not only is she an incredible attorney, but she’s been an advocate for the elderly, LGBTQ community, developmentally disabled, homeless pets. She’s a hiker, a camper, a skier. She volunteers for the community emergency response team. She was our our attorney for both of our surrogaces, and we are so excited to introduce and have on our podcast Beth Wolfsong. Hi, Beth. Welcome.
Beth:
Hi, thanks so much for having me.
David:
So, my first question I have to ask immediately is why would you, somebody like you with your pedigree, ever fraternize with the likes of two idiots of us?
Beth:
Oh my gosh. Well, I’d say I’m more in your camp than the way you described me.
David:
Well, this is a safe space to yeah, to to let it all hang out. This is the place where we we want to hear all the horror stories, but I’m so excited to have you on because I feel Like a lot of parents, a lot of gay parents kind of go into the gay parenting process with like, I don’t know what I’m doing. Like, what the fuck are we doing? Not not only the practical side of like how do we uh achieve parenthood via you know adoption or surrogacy or or or any of the various methods, but legally, because it it just feels like, are we allowed to do this? So, my first question for you is what is what are some things that gay parents or um hopeful gay parents have to consider legally that maybe straight people would never even have to consider?
Beth:
Oh gosh. Well, so many different things just came to mind. It’s hard to pick just one. Um, you know, one of the things that I think is the most subtle that other people don’t have to think about is that once our kids are here, and even when we’ve taken steps like adoption or judgments of parentage, oftentimes we still have to deal with presumptions that one of us is not the parent of our child. And that makes that the legal steps that you took and the documentation that you have even more important because there’s so much, I guess, inherent bias or misunderstanding, right? When you see two men, which one of you is the father, right? Or same thing with women, which one of you is the mom? Um, and that kind of continues on well past you taking all those initial steps. So I think that’s one thing that’s kind of unique to um our community that we have to continue to face or deal with or be prepared for.
Gavin:
Are are there steps that we can take to fix that problem when tra I suppose when traveling from state to state? Do we need to take extra precautions? And certainly internationally do we need to take um extra precautions to protect ourselves legally?
Beth:
Well, it’s always recommended, of course, that you have documentation with you. Um birth certificates are the things that are most easily recognized, but it’s not a birth certificate isn’t actually the strongest source of affirmation that you are, for example, both legal parents. Um it’s the actual court documents, the judgment of adoption or declaratory judgment of parentage or things like that. That’s the document with the real strength. But so in the best case scenario, you bring everything with you because what you want to do is have the document that’s most readily recognized by the person that you’re dealing with. But the other thing is depending on where you travel, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’re uh not going to encounter resistance, because there are places in our in in the world in particular where they just don’t recognize birth certificates that have two men on them, for example. Um so it’s not a slam dunk that that will solve any problem you encounter anywhere, but it’s sure a really strong step in the right direction when you have those types of documents with you.
David:
Yeah, and you know what, it I it’s so hard to explain to to straight people that like we so we have a family binder and we bring it with us when we travel, and it has like the judgment of parentage, our birth certificates, it has all the documentation that says we are parents in whatever way. There is this inherent metaphor of like this like weight we have to carry, physically carry with us as we travel as gay parents to somehow defend ourselves in the case that one of us is in the hospital, we have to visit. And that isn’t a hard thing to explain. I have family, all of my family, and I grew up in in the South, and not like the cute South. We’re talking like, you know, the rough South, you know. Um, listen, I I grew up doing some horrific things uh in the back of a Walmart. So I know how it works there. And and the problem is that that that weight kind of affects you. You know, my my one of my family members lives in North Carolina, and she’s always like, oh, come visit us more or come move down here. And it’s hard to explain to her that like being in this state puts me at risk. It puts my children at risk. And and it probably won’t be an issue, but I have to carry this binder. And then the binder was a judge saying, No, no, no, you’re definitely the father. And I have to hope that that works if I need it. And that that weight is is is hard to get across to I think some people who’ve never had to even consider that.
Beth:
It is, it is. And it was the same thing with the um, you know, the struggle for marriage equality, too, that a lot of people didn’t quite understand uh that weight that you constantly deal with when you’re out in the world and how people view your family, whether you’re a family or not, in the eyes of others, and it’s it’s a difficult thing to carry.
Gavin:
So uh kind of along the lines of uh exp uh preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. Would you say that as a parent, uh, are you per particularly permissive with what your child is able to do? Or were you always thinking, oh my god, this is the worst case scenario that uh we have to absolutely avoid? Would you uh did you put some tight ropes on her to uh to control her? Or uh did you act like an attorney or not?
Beth:
I definitely acted like an attorney. And and I’m a Virgo to boot. So that combination is really tough when you are parenting um because you’re constantly trying to plan ahead and you can’t plan ahead with kids, or at least not very far. And uh and yeah, I mean being a lawyer, one of the things that’s that was both educational and illuminating and also really difficult is you really learn about um how much can go wrong from an otherwise seemingly innocuous situation. And so as a parent, it was really hard not to and and still continues to be really hard not to put all that worry and fret on our daughter and to to try not to restrict her more than uh necessary.
David:
So tell us about you. So you you are a parent, and and so we we as gay people, we all have this weird origin story that we get to tell. We’re like straight people, we kind of get it. We’re like, yeah, six-pack eczema and a you know, a romantic night out, and you made a kid, but we don’t get to say that. So, like, how did how did you and your wife become parents?
Beth:
Oh my gosh. Okay, so um first let me qualify that with we were not yet lawyers practicing in this particular area of law at the time.
David:
Okay, all right.
Beth:
So uh we had a family member who acted as our sperm donor, and uh my wife, um so the family members from my side of the family, and um my wife is the um parent who carried. Uh and we kind of just did everything on our own. Complete absence of paperwork, and you know, uh fortunately, um this was a relative with whom I I am very close, and you know, we did eventually move to a place where we could do um a judgment of parentage, uh excuse me, adoption judgment. But we were living in a state that didn’t recognize us as a family at all. So the way we went about it with no written contracts, no judgment of adoption, no marriage, which would create a marital presumption for me. It was just all very backwards.
David:
But wait, you’re alluding to the are you saying you didn’t even do IVF? You did this like this was like a homemade basically made a homemade birthday cake.
Beth:
It was homemade, yep, yep, yep.
David:
Homemade birthday cake with like the little letters that didn’t quite work out, but it was a cake, right? You made a cake.
Beth:
That’s exactly right. That’s right.
David:
I mean, listen, that like that that I had I remember seeing a documentary, uh, I think it was from the late 80s, and it was about two men, and they wanted to have a baby, and they kind of did that, and they did this like whole home ceremony or whatever, but I remember watching it being fascinated. But but you so when you say like you kind of did it outside the bounds of what you would maybe do now, is like from the get-go, from the creation, and not only the legal, but like the literal creation of your your daughter.
Beth:
That’s right, yeah. And you know, when my daughter was born, I was a complete legal stranger to her. Uh because we were leav living in a state where I was not allowed to adopt her unless Jen terminated her own parental rights. Oh my gosh. Which kind of would have dep defeated the purpose, right? Um, or we were married, and at the time we weren’t allowed to be married, so you know the the vulnerability I felt when my daughter was born was just incredible. And I thought I was going to be okay with it because there were lots of other families living in that state dealing with the same thing, and I just thought, okay, well, we’ll just deal with it. But it was really incredible the moment she was born and how much it just switched um flipped a switch in me. You know, I um I still remember the the nurse in the hospital poking her little toe to get her little blood sample. And when I saw her face scrunch up and she started to cry, I thought I was going to murder that very nice woman. I just and I was like in that moment, I was like, oh my god, this is just not okay. It is not okay for me or for other people like me to feel this vulnerable with our families. And so that not only motivated us to move back home to Oregon where where we could um you know get the adoption done, but to also, I think it lends itself really well to what we bring to our practice too, because we we understand what it’s like, we understand what it feels like, um, we know what it’s like to be in that position. And you work with your wife, like in the same office.
Gavin:
I do. Yeah, how is that? What is it like to have the same practice? And I mean, you are partners in life, you are partners in parenting, and you’re partners in the law.
David:
Partners in the law. That’s gonna be your new ABC sitcom, partners in the law. By Dick Wolf.
Beth:
Uh, you know, we are celebrating our 28th anniversary next week, and I have to say, I just I absolutely love it. I love that we work together. Uh, I love that I see her at the office, I love that I see her at home. Um, you know, sometimes we’re so busy at the office we we are like passing like shadows in the night. Um, but it’s still really nice knowing that she’s you know, our doors, our office doors open um towards each other. And so it’s just nice kind of like knowing she’s there all day.
David:
That’s great. Uh so that is like so sweet, but like sickingly sweet. Like there’s people on the outside going just vomiting right now. They’re like, oh the love. Just two lawyers in love. In Oregon, no less.
Gavin:
Just add all the jokes on Twitter.
David:
This is why gays shouldn’t get married. They just love each other and and and and open law offices together. My god, what’s next?
Beth:
Um I will tell you though that um two women and a teenage girl in a house together during a pandemic, that that that was a challenge at times. I think it was, you know, I think all you have to say is two uh menopausal age women and one teenage girl. And I think that’s all you need to say. Stuck in the house together for several years.
Gavin:
So that’s the that’s the byline of your ABC special. Um, so what about um bef in your parenting process and uh working with and representing um gay parents, have there been some things that you’ve observed in others that made you say, oh, not gonna make that mistake, either legally or parent parentally?
Beth:
No, you know, this is probably also gonna sound a little cheesy, but I uh, you know, when it with all the people that we work with, I mean, and just so many people from so many different walks of life life, both here in the US and we we have um clients from abroad as well. I I don’t I can’t think of one thing where I just really sat back and went, oh dear God. Um I just lovely people with hearts of gold who are doing their best to parent well. Um, you know, people who people who uh ha have children this way, they really want it.
David:
And that’s yeah, that’s what that was my first thought is like, you know, we have to really want it. We have to work really hard, like we have to achieve so much more to become parents. You know, I don’t want to sound like I’m putting down straight people all the time, but like they can accidentally become parents. We cannot, right? We have to really want it. So you’re like by the time you get to the level of you, the the the people who have wanted to be parents are so curated that, like, yeah, it’s it would be hard to see a mess come through the door. However, I guarantee you a lot of those parents become messes. I’m one of them.
Beth:
Oh, sure. Oh my gosh, yes. We all get there um some faster than others. I’m for the audience, my hand is raised in the air. Um yes, so yeah, that’s I think a natural part of parenting.
David:
So do you is there anything coming down the line, let’s say politically, that you are keeping your eye on in regards to kind of gay parents and the law? Is there anything that you’ve kind of like keeping my eye on that because that could change things dramatically?
Beth:
Oh, well, that’s a really great question. Um I think one of the things that you I ask great questions. I think one of the things that uh we are kind of alert to right now is the um post-Dobbs effect. So with the the Dobbs decision last year uh around abortion, um there’s a lot of implications there for assisted reproduction. And not only uh assisted reproduction in and of itself, but also people’s rights to be able to make decisions about their own genetic material. And so depending on how the courts go, how Congress goes, we could see some real shifts there in people’s ability to have children via um assisted reproduction. And I know I’m being a little bit vague, and that’s because right now we’re still kind of grappling with what are what exactly are the implications of that decision and cases that may stem from that decision, but it it it’s something that we we are definitely alert to and keeping an eye on.
David:
Yeah, because I remember when we went we did gestational surrogacy, and in that process we had a uh an anonymous egg donor who had to sign away her uh connection to her genetic material, which you know legally there’s a decision she’s making and a decision we’re making, and then our surrogate herself, same thing. So there’s a lot of like decision making that these women are doing uh and men um that you’re saying could be in the balance, that they that does that maybe could be a decision they can’t make themselves.
Beth:
That’s right. So, you know, the the most obvious example that came from that Dobbs decision is um can intended parents ask their surrogate to terminate a pregnancy if, for example, you know, they get some kind of horrible uh test results and and you know there’s something significantly wrong with the fetus?
Gavin:
Or even in this c scenario, like uh we had a scenario where um we wanted to implant a few embryos to have a better chance of having you know one. What if you suddenly have quadruplets and you’re like, I cannot support quadruplets. I could maybe do twins, but like, and that is in reality, that is aborting a fetus, right?
Beth:
That’s absolutely right. And even if it was for the health of the remaining fetuses or the health of the safety of the surrogate, um, you know, the the ability of the parties in that decision, I mean in that situation to be able to decide what to do is greatly impaired depending on what jurisdiction they’re in.
Speaker 2:
Yep.
Beth:
Now, on top of that, sometimes even having a contract, some some of the states that are more rigid about it, even having a contract where in the contract it says IPs can ask the surrogate to reduce the pregnancy and surrogate will do that. Now we have to worry about is that um is there criminal repercussions for the intended parents and even asking her to do that for them. You know, so that’s kind of like the most uh uh significant example, but there are also things like a lot of times in contracts like egg donation contracts or sperm donation, embryo donation, there are usually provisions about what the intended parents can do with the genetic material. Right? And one of those is usually the the authority to uh excuse me, the ability to authorize the destruction of material if they’re not going to use it anymore. Well now there’s a big open question about, especially for embryos, can you actually authorize the destruction of that genetic material?
David:
In in these contracts, if if like you said, the I in the contract it says IPs can, you know, choose to um have the pregnancy terminated for, you know, X reasons, the idea that that’s enforceable, right? If the surrogate says I don’t want to, is somebody gonna tie her down and force the. You know what I mean? There’s there’s a there’s a there’s a really and so I think maybe you and I, Beth, maybe had this conversation years ago when we were talking about it, is that the benefit in having the that in the contract is not the enforceability of it. It’s that you had the conversation, you had to have the outward conversation and agreements, which I would imagine probably eliminates most of the issues if and when that comes up, because you guys are forced to get aligned on uh on that level and say things out loud and sign a contract to where there’s no misunderstandings versus like, oh, we just never talked about it, and now we have to make this decision really quickly.
Beth:
That’s exactly right. One of the reasons why we do those contracts is to give people an opportunity to have those hard discussions ahead of time, before there is a pregnancy. So that because really what it comes down to a lot of times in situations like that, it’s hard no matter what, right? Making that kind of decision. Um but one of the things that makes a situation like that uh uh um gentler or less difficult is the relationship that develops between the independent, uh the intended parents and the surrogate. And having those conversations ahead of time is kind of like a getting to know you type of conversation. And it’s like a big one to jump into. But knowing that, I mean, being able to have those conversations ahead of time, getting to know each other a little bit better in that way, also helps start that process of forming the relationship.
David:
I I couldn’t agree with you more. Uh, we we had two lots of for our first surrogate, we had two surrogaces, but the first one having those conversations ahead of time developed a way of communicating that was so useful when the things came up that we didn’t expect. The two ones I was thinking of was the day of the birth of my son, which was going to be a scheduled C section, at the last minute, they were like, You both can’t go in the room. And we had to at that moment decide who is going where, what’s doing what. And then when we were in, we ended up both going in the room, but her husband stayed out of the room. We both go in the room, and 20 seconds before the birth of my son, the doctor leaned over and goes, Do you want us to uh drop the curtain or do you want us to um, you know? And we were like, What what? And we all had to look at each other and be like, What we had to make a decision in that second, 15, 20 seconds before our son was born, are we gonna Do this curtain thing? Who’s gonna hold it? Like, we had no idea that that question was coming. We didn’t have time to prepare it and Google and all that stuff. We had to make that decision. And because we had this experience of having to have these discussions, these awkward discussions about selective reduction and all of that compensation or all the awkward things you have to talk about. We had that uh supporting us in this decision-making process, and it was so, so valuable because you can’t plan for all those things.
Beth:
No, you can’t. No. Even with the lengthiest contract, you’re just you’re not, you can’t, you can’t see everything that’s coming. You can’t talk about it all in advance.
Gavin:
So, Beth, is your daughter gonna go into the law?
Beth:
She says adamantly, no.
Gavin:
Would you encourage her to go into it if she said she wanted to go to law school?
Beth:
I would. You know, I have to tell you, even if I weren’t a practicing attorney, I would be so grateful that I went to law school. It was the most incredible education. Fascinating and just really useful in almost all aspects, in almost any job you have. It’s such an incredible education. And so yes, I heck yes, if she wanted to go, I’d be all for it. Um I wish it was something that everybody had access to.
Gavin:
Oh what do you think she’s gonna end up doing?
Beth:
You know, she’s in a phase in her life where she is experimenting with different ideas, and she doesn’t quite yet know, so I’m not quite yet sure where she’s gonna end up. She’s finding her way.
David:
This is the perfect age, and she’s what, 19?
Beth:
19, yes.
David:
Yeah. I mean, that to me, that is the dream age to just try all the things and fail at almost all of them. Like fail, try things, you have no inhibitions, and you just you’re just ready to go for it, right? And it’s a great time in your life to do that and to fail in a quote unquote safe space, and then find what you really love. I had to I went to a separate college and I I finally was in a place where I could just try things and fail, and then see kind of what I liked and what I didn’t like, and it was it was very valuable. Um, you you are too there, you’re just too pristine. We gotta know what is the dirt? We know what’s the dirt on Beth Wolf’s song because you’re you’re you you’re just you’re batting a thousand. Is that a sports reference that works? I don’t know. But tell us about a parenting fail that was so spectacular that that we can host because this is Gatriarch. This is about the mess of parenting. So when were you a mess? Wow. We want to know when how we can relate to you. Yeah, we can’t relate to all the good stuff. We need the bad stuff.
Beth:
Uh well, first of all, I think pristine is about the last word I would use to describe myself. I I um I’ve had quite the I’ve had quite the life experiences. Um including being a mess in my twenties, also. I in fact, uh I know this isn’t I know this is dodging your question, but um As a lawyer.
David:
I mean you’re you’re you’re you’re listening I’m outmatched. I get it. Listen, I am totally outmatched of the lawyer.
Beth:
But at least I acknowledged I was doing that. Um I didn’t start law school until I was 30. And you know, at the time that felt really hard. I felt like I was chickening out. I felt like it was something I wanted, and I was just chickening out. Which was true to a certain extent, but it was also when I look back now, it was such an incredible it was the absolutely the right thing because my t my twenties, I was just all over the place. I had so many different kinds of d jobs, but then I would also just like drop everything and go off in these crazy, stupid adventures and so by the time I got to law school when I was thirty, I got so much more out of it because I had had all those experiences. Meaning I was in a much different place in my life when I started law school than I would have been had I gone right out of undergrad. And I also really wanted it. I wanted it so much more because I had been waiting for it for so long. And so, you know, I think that’s a really it’s a sideways way of answering your question. It’s not about a parenting fail, but it’s about how failure really isn’t failure. It’s about you taking a s uh a path that you weren’t anticipating, but still getting where you you needed to go.
David:
Beth, I I was looking more for I ran out of wipes at the mall and had to dip my Dunkin’ Donuts in some iced tea. But we’ll take that answer.
Gavin:
Let’s go back to the pristine veneer. And can you give us maybe just maybe just the top three bits of dare I say free legal advice for people thinking about becoming parents or even those who are parents already? And these are three things that uh I hope you’ve thought about A, B, and C.
Beth:
So, of course, from a lawyer’s perspective, the number one is just make sure you get your paperwork done. It is not too late. So if you have a kiddo and you haven’t done your adoption, it’s not too late. Uh in most jurisdictions, of course, it depends on where you are, what the laws are there. Um if you haven’t done an estate plan, it is not too late. Uh really super important, even though we have marriage equality. If you’re married, you’ve got some um protections that come from that. But marriage is the baseline. Right? It’s the foundation, and you need to build on that with your estate plan. And for your children too, nominating guardians and all the types of things that you can do with an estate plan. So number one is get your documents done. I was gonna say this was number two, but I guess it’s kind of related to number one. If the cost for those things is um an inhibiting factor, um don’t despair. There are lots of resources out there, although it sometimes takes a little bit of time to find them. Most state bars, um so like in Oregon, we have the Oregon state bar. Most state bars have or sponsor um free or reduced fee legal services. Um there are a lot of um gay organizations that provide um financial assistance for certain types of uh legal assistance. And there are lawyers out there who offer pro bono and what we call low bono legal services to folks who couldn’t otherwise afford so um so if finances are a factor, don’t let it be a deterrent because there are um ways out there. You deserve that legal protection too, and there are ways to get it that are within your budget, regardless of what your budget is.
David:
And also there are some things in life that you just shouldn’t cheap out on. I mean, there’s really two things, right? There’s attorneys, you got it? You like don’t cheap out on attorney, and q-tips. Never buy the cheap dollar store q-tips. It is worth buying the name brand Johnston Johnson Q-tips. It’s just that’s just a life lesson that we all know, right?
Gavin:
That’s right. And and my takeaway here also is just uh the term low bono. I think we should just leave it here on low bono. That seems very on-brand somehow. For Gatriarchs, we’re just gonna leave it at low bono. Thank you, Beth, for lowering our standards. This is where the veneer comes off. I’m taking the veneer off and just saying this is my takeaways low bono.
David:
Low bono. Yes. Thank you for demeaning yourself by being on our silly little podcast. You’ve been so helpful. I’m sure people will love hearing from you, and thank you so much for joining us.
Beth:
It’s been my pleasure. I I enjoyed speaking with you both. Thank you. Thanks.
David:
All right. Um, now it’s time for something great. Gavin, what is something great this week? You know what? I’m a great parent.
Gavin:
Well, occasionally I make a great choice. Once in a while I have a choice. Once in a while I have a parenting win. My kid wanted to paint his wall black last year. And I’m like, you can’t paint a wall black. And then I thought, well, why not? I mean, it’s actually a really easy, it’s a contained rectangular space. Why not? So I let him paint it black last year and he kind of decorated over it with purple. It was actually super cool. So this um over just a few weeks ago, he wanted to repaint it. And so I was like, oh geez, and he needed all six colors of the rainbow. And I’m like, oh god, this is gonna be so expensive, frankly. But I ended up getting small little like quarts of paint instead of gallons or anything like that. Anyway, he I painted it all white, he pushed me out of the room, he wouldn’t let me in for hours. And I thought, what are you doing in there? He was late coming down to dinner. He’s like, I’m finishing, I’m finishing, I’m finishing. What he had done is he had imagine you have a piece of paper and you scribble black all over it, and then you color in the spaces in between, right? The negative space. That’s what he did. He taped like 50 pieces of tape all over, making triangles in all sorts of shapes, and then he painted entirely himself all six color, all six primary and secondary colors all over the and then we as a family peeled the paint the tape off, and he has this spectacular artwork on his wall that he did entirely himself. And what is great about that is not my kid, it’s that I let him do it, and I was just like, just do it. Paint can always be painted over. And it was a moment of me being like, you know, you need to jump in puddles, you need to get your clothes dirty, you need to like just take some risks and and know that you’re gonna um make a mess. And actually, he didn’t make much of a mess. So I was proud of that. It was a something great moment.
David:
So your something great is about you, is what you’re saying. I mean, I’m an only child, sorry. So my something great this week is is is less romantic. It’s it’s an app, and I I’m a writer and a director, and so I I’m constantly jotting down ideas or thinking about outlines, and I’ve got a lot of notes. And I was using the notes app and I was trying to use Word documents, and I found this uh app called Evernote, and it is totally changed my life where I pay for the pro version, but I believe there’s a free version. And it’s um it’s just a note-taking app, and you can organize things by notebooks, but also you can uh add clips of uh audio clips and web pages and photos. You can just kind of drag and drop. It’s really user-friendly. But what I love about it the most is I have an iPad, I have a laptop, and I have my phone, and I’m always on one of the three, and it’s constantly syncing. So it is always uploading to I guess the cloud. So wherever I am on whatever device, it is always the most update version of it. Anyway, I love it. Evernote, again, they don’t sponsor the show, but they’re I’m willing to accept a check.
Gavin:
You’re telling me that the 339 notes I have in my phone notes app could be simplified if I just used Evernote, huh?
David:
Yeah, it’s a sign of your mental illness, Gavin.
Gavin:
This show has been brought to you by uh Dunkin’ Donuts, Wendy’s, Wells Fargo, and yes, Evernote.
David:
And that is our show. So if you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments, you can email us at gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com. We’ll take bitchy comments as well. That’s cool.
Gavin:
Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast. On the internet, David is at DavidFmVon everywhere, and Gavin is at GavinLodge if you can find him on anything.
David:
Please leave us a glowing five-star review wherever you get in the podcast.
Gavin:
Thanks. And we’ll see you next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.