Full Transcript
My partner was asking me what computer are you gonna get, and uh I was like, I just I honestly I need the basics, the bare minimum. I just need to be able to do email and porn. And this is Gatriarchs.
David:
Okay, so you know those clay places that are indoor, like there’s slides and ball pits, and you know, they host kids’ birthday parties and and petri dishes of diseases. Correct, and there’s shit everywhere. Um so there’s one by us, and we go there, you know, once a month, maybe. We we we you know, it’s fun, it’s expensive, right? It costs like 50, 60 bucks for all four of us to go every time. So, but it’s a lot of fun. Um I realized something this weekend when we were there was I hate other people’s kids. And I was like, yeah, and the ri and and then it came to my mind because I was sitting in the ball pit with my son and my daughter, and they were having fun, they were throwing balls, and there’s other kids kind of throwing balls or whatever. And this cute little girl, three, four, somewhere around there, kind of walked over to me and she had like a ball, and she goes, Look! And she like threw the ball towards like the pit that all the kids were throwing in. And my first instinct, honestly, was like, Why the fuck are you talking to me? And I’m like, why do I have such a visceral reaction to other children talking to me? And I was just like, anytime a kid there did something I didn’t like, they’d cut in front of someone, they push somebody down, they sneeze with their you know mouth open or whatever it is. I was like, oh, these disgusting vermin. When my kids do it, I’m like, yeah, kids will be kids, right? And I was like, what a what first of all? Obviously, I’m a hypocrite. I’m a hypocrite in life, but I was just thinking, is this a normal parent thing? Is this a normal parent thing for us to like love our kids and even love like our friends’ kids or people who are like kids in our life? But when like a stranger’s kid does something totally benign, we’re just like, get away from me. Why are you talking to me? Or am I a horrible person?
Gavin:
Or both. I mean, that is a foregone conclusion. I talk shit about my kids all the time. I, in particular, one of them, I won’t say which, I throw under the bus an awful lot. I mean, okay, it’s my daughter. She’s wonderful, she’s kind, she is smart, she’s all the things that actually matter, but I will absolutely be like, oh my god, if you would just change your attitude. And um, I mean, I had a lot of shit talking to do about my kids, without a doubt. But when it comes down to it, I don’t want to trade them in for anybody else’s kids. Not your kids, David. No offense. I’m sure that your kids aren’t as cool as mine, in my view, even though I talk shit about them constantly.
David:
Yeah, other kids are so fucking annoying. Do you know when our um dads of the year mugs arrive? Or do you know when they’re arriving? Because we just started this episode with like kids for other people’s kids fucking suck. Fuck those kids.
Gavin:
Let’s be honest, kids ruin everything and they’re assholes. I did one time, I saw a dude with a t-shirt that I it was one of those times that I stopped him and said, Can I please take a picture of your shirt? Because it said world’s okayest dad.
David:
Yeah. Yeah. Relatable. That’s a yeah, that’s a relatable thing. Um, also, what’s very relatable and super embarrassing is I am now entering the phase. My son is three and a half. We are now entering the phase of me getting told on, um, and I wasn’t prepared. Oh I wasn’t prepared. Um, I drive the kids to school in the morning and I drop them off um by myself. And I am a verbal driver. Let’s say that. I am get out of my way. What are you doing? Why are you such an idiot? You know, I’m I’m just a typical Jersey driver. And my husband, for whatever reason, had to drop off the kids by himself the other day. And he comes home and he goes, Do you know what your son said today? And I said, No. He goes, A woman wasn’t like the the light had turned green, and the woman wasn’t going. And Emmett from the backseat goes, You can go, boo-boo. And my husband was like, Where did he learn that? And I was like, Oh fuck. Now, whenever I say something in the presence of my kids, I have to worry that it gets back to my husband. So, like, secrets are secrets are out. Like, there’s no there’s no like, hey, let’s not talk about how daddy did like a pre-dinner drive-thru at Wendy’s just to take the edge off because it’s gonna like I’m gonna get told on. So I’m in a new phase and I don’t know how I feel about it.
Gavin:
Uh yeah, I there have been a few instances where I don’t I don’t know that I’ve actually said, please don’t say anything to your other dad about this. Uh, but there have been times that I thought, oh God, this is gonna come back to bite me in the ass, that’s for sure, just on the home front.
David:
We still have the baby, so that’s good. I can still tell her secrets, I can still do embarrassing things in front of her, but you know, my time’s out with Emmett. Absolutely, you’re done there.
Gavin:
You’re done. So something that’s driving me crazy recently is uh this morning I was having a perfectly lovely conversation as I was driving my kid to the bus, uh, my older daughter, who’s 11. And we had been having a good morning. Everything was good. Like, I got her up in time, I fed the animals uh because I knew she was running a little behind. And she was like, Oh, thanks for doing that for me, daddy.
David:
When you say you fed the animals, do you mean you fed your children?
Gavin:
Plus the dog and the cat. Got it. And she said, Oh, I forgot it’s Friday, you’re doing that for me. And I’m like, No, it’s because I got you up too late. And I was the one laying in bed looking at my phone and realized, oh god, I’ve woken her up in that past the window of idealism. Anyway, so we’re in the car, we’re driving, and she said, Oh, Daddy, I want to show you this thing. She pulls out her phone and I’m like, Oh, something to buy? She’s like, never mind, you don’t even need to see it. I’m like, no, no, please tell me. Is it something? What do you want, what do you want to show me? Yes, it’s this new skincare thing that’s totally trending. And I’m like, oh my god, can we just have one morning where we’re not talking about buying shit? Because, oh my goodness, let me tell you, when you get to those consumerist years, may you not have TikTok in just a few years uh when your kids are old enough to be told by the entire capitalist hegemony of um, you know, rapacious capitalism. I understood three of those ten words. You’re welcome. It’s let me tell you, it’s uh I mean, just crazy capitalism gets their claws in you. And I think it is kind of a genetic trait, I admit. I was a big old consumer when I was a kid and I just wanted to buy shit all the time. But that was based upon the Saturday morning cartoons I was watching back in the world.
David:
But that’s her TikTok now.
Gavin:
That’s her TikTok.
David:
And also, don’t you run a company where you sell shit to people?
Gavin:
Where I sell overpriced, unnecessary items that nobody actually needs in their lives. Yes, but it’s high quality that’ll last you for years. The title of this episode is We Are Hypocrites. Brought to you and sponsored by EC Nox, baby gear for stylish dads. So, going back to what my kid wanted to show me as I shut her down and crushed her spirit on this morning, she wanted to show me more about her skincare routine. I’m gonna be talking about this for a while. My kid, of course, is 11 and she has flawless skin, but do you realize that there is an entire market out there that is catering or rather preying on 11-year-old children who think that they need to use skincare products? And I’m like, sweetie, you have perfect skin. You don’t need to worry about this. And she’s like, but dad, it’s not about that. It’s so that my skin remains flawless. And I’m like, right, so that you don’t look like me in 40 years. I get it, but I don’t think you needed to start using skincare, which by the way, is not um sunscreen. I mean, and also, far be for me to suggest she put some sunscreen on, because this is the only skincare you actually need. I have checked that out with a friend of mine who is a dermatologist, and she’s like, it’s all bullshit. Just get luperderm and skin and um sunscreen. That’s all you need, is just like a little bit of hydration and mainly sunscreen. But oh no, you think drunk elephant? Do you know the name drunk elephant? No. Do you know it’s it’s the latest thing on TikTok, and it’s they’ve got very, very funny Instagram posts. But drunk elephant is this overpriced, bougie skincare preying on my 11-year-old child. And is it anything about um sunscreen? Hell no. Is it all about absurd serums and moistures? I’m like, Allison, oh my god, you were 11 years old. You do not need eye serums.
David:
Also, think about like the stupid bullshit we adults put on our face. I think about like those Korean face masks, which I yeah, for sure put on my face. And you have this like disfigured panda like laying on top of your skin. You look like a marking serial killer, and we’re like, oh yeah, it’s it’s the newest trend from Korea. Like, we are we are exactly what your daughter is. She’s just yeah, she just happens to have the good skin still. And it probably is a little hurtful for her to be like, yeah, but dad, I don’t want to look like you.
Gavin:
Yep. Yep. Yep. Is it hurtful? I’m I’m now used to it because she’s crushed my soul enough over the last few years that it’s fine. I I was probably soulless to begin with, right? But yeah, but I’m all about you know what I’m all about looking like a panda on a Saturday night watching movies. I think that’s fun.
David:
A giant goblet of wine, a disgusting disfigured panda laying atop your face.
Gavin:
And when you peel it off, it does feel refreshing. It does. I love the I love it. I think it’s fun. But um, and we went through a phase of buying those cheap ass, probably not bougie Korean face masks at Target. Um, and then uh my daughter broke out because of one. I mean, she got a full rash on her face, and so luckily we don’t now we don’t waste our money on things that cost$3.99. She is pining away for things that cost$399 instead, you know? Good thing you’re really rich.
David:
Listen, all that sweet Gateriarch’s money is pouring in, so you got to buy all the Korean face masks you want. So, thank you notes. Do you do them? Yes, and by you, you mean my husband does 95% of them, and I’m like, oh, I’ll I’ll put stamps on them and address them. And he’s like, and then I’m like, we did thank you notes, didn’t we? He’s like, no. But yeah, he is he’s a big believer in thank you notes, and I I get a little thank you notes can feel a little oppressive. Like, like somebody was like, hey, I’ll drive you to the airport. It’s like, do they need a thank you note? But my husband is a thank you noter. Like we buy them in bulk at Costco, no joke. And then he writes them for everything. So yeah, we’re a thank you note family.
Gavin:
Well, that’s pretty extreme. I mean, I think it’s appreciated, and I think it’s a lot of thought and action that counts. Uh ride to the airport, I’m not sure that I necessarily would give a thank you note for that. I think dinners are um it’s an appreciated thing. But I do force my kids to write thank you notes for Christmas and for a birthday. For sure. Yeah, we do too. And I’ve been able to say to them, listen, you gotta thank them and show some gratitude, or they won’t buy for you next year. I’m not sure if that’s actually even true. And the percentage of people who actually send me a thank you note, I mean, far be it for me to sound uh morally superior to anybody I am, but the percentage of people who actually send anything is very, very small, right? But it is not about the torture I’m inflicting upon my kids to do it. Now it’s an expectation, they just do it and they get over with, and they put in, I mean, you want to talk about a half-assed thank you note, it’s almost embarrassing what they’re sending. I mean, I’m lucky if I get a pencil scrawled chicken scratch that says thanks for the shirt. But I grew up doing it, my mom forced me to do it, and um, and I think it’s it’s it it’s it’s a c it’s a personal interhuman connection that you make with the person who thought enough to send you something in this world where we’re increasingly disconnected and don’t think shit about anybody. And um, but also, and this is probably probably part of a much larger topic that I could talk about for hours and plan to for the next two years of our first two seasons of Daytriarch, and then I’ll find something else for the next ten seasons. But it’s all about gratitude. I just feel like I just want my kids to appreciate what incredibly lucky lives they live um in our um tiny house with really low ceilings. And no mom. And no mom.
David:
You know, we who so I saw a TikTok trend and it actually made because I I uh the the I the idea of thank you notes, love it. Love it. Love a thank you note, think it’s sweet, it’s it’s romantic, it’s old school. But doing them, writing like 20 for Christmas is so exhausting. But I saw a TikTok trend which was really great, which was you kind of open like all the cards out on a table, and then you just give your kids crayons and markers and just let them go fucking bananas, and then you swoop in at the end, be like, hey, a little artwork from the kids, thank you so much, blah blah blah blah. And it doesn’t need to look good, it’s just chaos of colors. But for them, it feels like super, like super personal and and super cool and fun. And for the kids, it’s you know, it’s it’s killing 30 minutes, which is the name of the game. Absolutely.
Gavin:
Now I will say, I admit, just this week I was feeling morally superior and texted a friend of mine from uh early preschool days who we commiserated about how important thank you notes are and looked down our noses at those who didn’t send them. Occasionally we send each other a text to just um you know revel in our superiority. And uh, but uh just this week I saw an article I in some newspaper that was about how thank you notes are actually super oppressive and they are a sign of incredible privilege, and uh we need and and they’re performative, and it’s almost showing off like your moral superiority. And it did give me pause a little bit. Of course, the article it was it was a blog piece, and um it’s a bastion, it’s saying it’s a bastion of old school Martha Stewart, no, Donna Reed white privilege from the 1950s, right? Of um etiquette and whatnot, and that it’s uh it’s an absurd performative display of privilege. And uh, but at the same time, it did say, listen, if it makes you feel good to send them, go ahead and send them, but you cannot look down your nose at other people who don’t send them.
David:
Oh, I’m all about performing, I’m all about peacocking my my privilege. I’m like, look at my privilege, but I get it. Like there’s a there’s a there’s an undercurrent there of of of privilege and stuff, you know. Listen, I we go to Costco to get uh the thank you cards, and guess what? I’m an executive member, they don’t just hand those cards out to anybody. Oh shit. All right, so let’s get to the real deal. This is the top three list that I’ve been looking forward to for quite a while. Um this is top three hottest dads. So, Gavin, you want to start us off? Who are your top three hottest dads?
Gavin:
Not only is he hot as fuck, charming as the day is long, just cute and seems relatable, but mainly he’s funny as hell, and he’s he’s so irreverent about his children, and I r I I embrace that. It’s Ryan Reynolds.
David:
Oh yeah, that’s your third number three. That’s great. Yeah, he’s he’s he’s yeah, super hot, super funny, yeah. Like he’s like so hot, but they clicked like when he was when he was getting his hotness all together, they clicked him one click down from mega hot, so he’s approachably hot. But if you see him in person, I don’t know if you’ve ever seen him in person, when you see him in person, you’re like, you are a you are a different species of human hot.
Gavin:
Yeah.
David:
I was doing a show on 50 wait 54th Street, and across the street from our stage door was the David Letterman Theater. So I would see all the celebrities come out, and I was like, no, that is that is the skin, talk about skin. That skin does not exist on normal humans. I saw Will Smith come out one time and I was like, your skin radiates something that we don’t have as regular people. Maybe he does the$5 Korean face mask. We don’t know. All right, who’s your number two? He doesn’t do the panda from Target, though, I would say.
Gavin:
Uh George Clooney. You did mention you would leave your family for him. He is uh he talk about Silver Fox and um a slightly older dad, and um and he’s I mean, see, he’s just somebody who makes shit happen and he thinks about the world beyond himself, and he seems to me, I mean, I wouldn’t say relatable at all, because he’s just a he’s a deity. I mean, he just is way beyond, you know, way beyond. So all right, who’s your number one? And then, well, I do aloe moves. Um, it was a COVID thing. Aloe moves is just an online um workout, you know, the subscription app. And um, there’s a guy named James who does my uh hardcore yoga classes, and he has a baby. And oh my god, those positions that he’s able to do. It’s James from Allo Moves.
David:
Nice, nice. Well, uh as usual, you take your list very seriously and thoughtfully, and mine is is disgusting and stupid. So um at number three, I’m gonna go with the dad from Coco Melon. The dad from Coco Melon, when he comes on screen, there’s a whole beach episode where he’s in just his little beach shorts. He’s got these huge hands and this tiny little waist and this gorgeous red hair. He is fine as fuck. So number three, dad from Coco Melon. Nice. Number two, the carpet guy on TikTok. Do you know who this guy is? No, I don’t. This guy’s entire account, his entire account is him like installing carpet in these houses. But I guess one of the tools that you use when you install carpet is like this, it’s like this long baton with like a knee thing, and they like knee it. They kick it in. Yeah. He does it in his jeans and no shirt. Oh. And he’s got this like super ripped, tattooed, lean, like borderline hillbilly vibe. Oh shit. Like, probably did meth, but doesn’t have an active addiction to meth. Right. And it is, he is so hot. And every video is him shirtless, just kneeing the fuck, just banging the wall, banging the wall. Oh my god. And my mind just goes into terrible, terrible places. So number two, carpet guy from I can imagine it right away.
Gavin:
And we will be linking this somewhere so that everybody can get the pleasure of the carpet guy kneeing, kneeing the shit out of stuff.
David:
Also, have you noticed that my my uh number three and number two don’t have names? I don’t know their names. Doesn’t matter. Just did Coco Melon Dad and Carpet Guy.
Gavin:
I’m pretty sure James from Aloe Moves is a made-up name, but I can sure see his face.
David:
So all right, number one is a little more standard, and this is maybe playing to my personal taste. Prince Harry. Uh I mean, talk about it. Prince Harry Sexy Daddy Ginger City. Uh huh. Oh man. I remember clocking him back in the days when it was like the brothers. When he was a Nazi. Yeah, I’m really into Nazis. Um, that is that’s the new title of the episode. But I just, there’s something about his little piercing eyes, and also he’s just like just cheeky enough. And like when he’s interviewed, he’s like, he’s just a little fuck you enough. And, you know, I’m into gingers.
Gavin:
The right amount of entitlement. We are so lucky to have on our show a guest who is a dear friend of mine. He is a former talent agent who uh was uh big and important in New York City and decided he wanted to take a professional detour, and he is now one of New York’s top real estate um realtors. He is insightful and thoughtful and philosophical. I’ve been lucky to uh beyond his mailing lists, where he doesn’t just talk about um selling apartments or buying apartments, he talks about um the relationship that somebody has with an apartment and how they can live their best lives and live uh in a very healthy mental space. So he takes it beyond just mere real estate. He’s also the father of a high achieving kid who is now in college. I want to hear all of his secrets to how he did it. This daddy is what every gay dad aspires to be. Welcome, Mike.
Gavin:
Thank you so much. Hey guys. I would love to do this every Friday. This is an ongoing thing. I’d love it.
Gavin:
Yes, we would be happy to have recurring guests, no doubt about that. So you know what? What fills your parenting soul these days? Let’s use that as a little intro to uh you, Mike.
Gavin:
What a sweet question. Um literally 10 minutes ago, I was on the phone with my son. So basically what fills my parenting soul more than anything is just to hear Jack’s voice, you know, for a minute a day and hear how he’s doing and you know, wish him a great day and see if he needs anything. It honestly I live for those moments. And uh and he’s he’s in college right now, right? Yeah, he’s a junior at Boston College. And you know, and this is sort of the first, you know, quote unquote, like normal year, you know, he’s having because you know the first year he was there, didn’t have a roommate, and classes were on Zoom, and last year was kind of an adjustment year, you know. And so I feel like he’s having a real college experience this year in Boston, which is I think, you know, of course, as we say, you know, such a great place to go to school. There’s so many students there. Totally. And uh he’s doing great. So you’re an empty nester now. I’m an empty nester.
David:
What is what is that like? Like I I’m on the opposite end. So I have a I have a one-year-old and a three-year-old. So like I’m so jealous. I’m still and of course, I’m so jealous of you. So obviously the grass is always greener, right? But like, what is it like to have you know spent these 18 years um with this person in your home, and then now your relationship has obviously changed a little bit, right?
Gavin:
Yeah, it’s um so my partner and I, Tom, we’re together. It’ll be 28 years next week, which is Mazatoff. Absolute thank you. It’s absolutely crazy. Uh I was a child when we met. You know, I can’t believe that I’m old enough to be with some for 28 years. But uh uh, you know, it’s still it’s lonely. You know, there’s a loneliness. You know, thank God. Tom and I enjoy doing a lot of the same things, which is usually, you know, eating dinner in front of a TV on a tray and you know, reading the paper on a Sunday, you know, and so thank God we’re our you know our tempos are very aligned. But it’s it’s sad, it’s still sad, you know, three years later, you know, even though like you know, from age 12 or 13 on, they’re mostly in their in their room with the door closed, you know, just being able to like you know bring a meal on a tray or coerce him to watch an episode of Will and Grace with me, you know. Uh I we miss it terribly. You know, it was like our license plate is three boys. So we were like we were three boys, you know, just kind of living together. Jack has always called us Tom and Mike, you know, so he would be you know three or four years old and refer, you know, say call Mike or Tom, you know, from the other room to see if we could bring him something. So it’s like our our buddy is is left the house. So we miss him. We miss him a lot.
Gavin:
Especially when he went to college. Did you have to set some kind of ground rules of saying I need some consistent um contact with you and let me call you, please answer the phone like once a day?
Gavin:
Or you know, I hear from parents who sometimes talk about talking to their, you know, when their kids go to school or move away, you know, connecting every one or two weeks. When I went to school, I grew up in LA and I I came here for NYU. I probably spoke to my mom every two or three weeks. I basically I need to hear his voice once a day, you know, and I don’t want to crowd him, and you know, he’s a very independent guy, and he always has been. I think that’s often true for for single kids, only kids. But Tom doesn’t have that same need, but uh honestly, like that kind of daily contact and a text does work, you know, so even if it’s it’s just a text, but it’s I’m kind of the caretaking parent, and Tom is probably more the buddy parent. So it’s just how I’m wired, you know, and uh it doesn’t happen every day, and I certainly don’t want him to feel that kind of pressure, but I also think maybe the pandemic changed some of this as well, you know, kind of you know, a sense that life is so unpredictable and fragile, you know, and I kind of appreciate, you know, even just 30 seconds to to say hello, but I try not to pressure him too much with it.
David:
So we all have we all have like our weird uh origin stories as gay parents, right? It’s like how’d you get your kids? You know, like I like I love when strangers are like, well, how’d you get them? Like well, their parents were weren’t looking and like grabbed them at a bus stop. What do you think? How else do we get kids? So how how did you how did you and your partner uh be become parents?
Gavin:
Yeah, um, so it started, you know, the journey was 23 years ago, which was a very long time ago in the sur it was surrogacy, you know. So that at that point there was one surrogacy agency, growing generations, that catered to gay clientele. And we did not know another parent, you know, who was going down that road, you know, so it was very, very new. It feels like it was such a long time ago, and also just a couple of years ago. So it’s that kind of weird paradox of timing. Um and we knew that we well, to be corny, uh the night we met, you know, we both said we want to be dads. And it was, you know, one of the things that drew us to each other. I’ve always known I wanted to be a dad, and so is Tom. And finding someone who felt that as well was a huge, just life-affirming, loving thing to hear. And I don’t actually know how we heard of growing generations, but um, I have to think about that because I don’t I don’t believe we had a c a friend who was a client, but we reached out to them, and I’m from California, as I mentioned, and they they were based there at the time, and we flew out and we basically said, We’ll do anything it takes, you know, we would we would love to work with you. And it uh was a blessing beyond words.
David:
So did you so uh well I I I think Gavin and I both also did gestational surrogacy and you know, Gavin we all kind of did like you did it what in 2000, right? Um and and Gavin did what 2009-ish? Uh no, 2011 and 2013. 2001, yeah, and we did it pretty recently. So um in like when everything goes perfectly, it is stressful, yeah, and ridiculous and weird and expensive. Was it also that in 2000?
Gavin:
100%, and I want to say even more so because we didn’t have anyone on this journey with us. Yeah. You know, we were so alone and hopeful and had so many questions, and neither of us, you know, we hadn’t been around babies much. I am the youngest of three, so uh it’s not like I was, you know, a surrogate big brother or dad myself, you know, with younger kids. Tom was kind of the same way as well. So it was so new for us. Neither one of us had ever changed the diaper. We were not, we didn’t grow up this way, you know. So I think we had so many layers of insecurity, not knowing other dads like ourselves. Um, Trish, our our Jack’s birth mother surrogate, our surrogate was in California. We were here, so we were really far away from them.
David:
You know, and did you have a separate egg donor or did was it a traditional surrogacy? It was traditional.
Gavin:
Wow. Yeah, which I don’t think happens.
David:
No, it’s not as common for sure.
Gavin:
Yeah, and it was uncommon then, and it just kind of worked out that way. Yeah. Uh which makes it uh, you know, kind of its own blessing in that right as well. You know, uh Trish wanted to be uh be a donor and also carry a child, you know. So that I think there’s a degree of magic, you know, to having a kid. You know, there’s a chemistry component, there’s a an emotional component, a love component. I think there’s some kind of magic, magic that happens, you know, and there was a big big dose of that in this in this.
David:
And also lots of fucking money. Let’s be honest. Lots of like I think the average now is$130,000. And that’s that’s including IVF, but that’s also like w if everything goes well. I know people we’re all in these surrogacy groups online where you know some of the people are paying, they’re they’re on they’re up in the 200s and they still haven’t had a child yet. We were very lucky in how how we came to be parents, but but I know for a lot of people the money part of it is what’s prohibitive of them becoming parents because adoption is also fraught with there’s just its own kind of chaos and uncertainty and and adoption. So um what in 2000, what were the legal because traditional surrogacy gets a little dicey with the legalities now back in back in 2000, was it was it also a little dicey? Were you guys a little unsure of how the legalities would work out?
Gavin:
Yeah, it was there was a lot to learn, and as it is the case as well now, uh, you know, the New York uh well, we weren’t able to go through you know, New York, you know, in terms of the official what they call the parentage action, you know. So we had to essentially Trish surrendered her right as a parent before Jack was born, and that all had to happen through California, and that was an emotional process, you know. Um it uh I think maybe even more so because she was is Jack’s birth mother and genetic mother, you know. So there there was an emotional bond, you know, it wasn’t just it wasn’t carrying a third party’s child. So I had the love that we share for her and have for her, and the gratitude.
David:
Is she still in your life now?
Gavin:
She is, she absolutely is, and there’s so many things to talk about with this, you know, because we so much of this happens uh just sort of spontaneously, you know, and we love her, Jack loves her. We have spent many years of joining her family for Thanksgiving. She and her partner uh live in Austin, and we go there for Thanksgiving.
David:
She’s a lesbian.
Gavin:
She’s a lesbian.
David:
Oh my god. I know absolutely taking it to another. Our second surrogate was also a lesbian. Yeah.
Gavin:
The whole thing is just beyond words. We love their kids, we’re part of their families, they’re part of ours. It’s Jack has always known that that relationship is open to him and comfortable in something that we support and love. She’s always known that. We’ve never wanted either of them to feel like we want to judge or set boundaries on their relationship. But, you know, some of that, so much of that just kind of evolves over time. But being as open and confident about it has served us well because you know, a kid has so many questions about where they come from and who they are. We Jack went to Harris Man for 15 years, um, which is you know a very traditional school. It’s been around for a very long time, and the entire time we were there, he was the only child of two dads. Really? Wow. And it has since changed. And I think in the last uh the last two years of him being at school, there were some younger families like ours in the nursery or lower division, but you know, Jack only knew himself as being, you know, a kid with his with a similar background, you know, so that also kind of felt really unique. Uh, you know, so the fact that he was able to feel comfortable as a kid in the family like ours, his genetic mom, you know, birth mother and surrogate was a real blessing.
Gavin:
And uh, but I would imagine your good energy attracts good energy. And what do you do when you have somebody who’s just uh acting obnoxiously? Do you try to, you know, how do you enforce it?
David:
Yeah, why is somebody like you uh affiliating with a podcast like us? Like you’re way too nice to be on our podcast. Yeah, right.
Gavin:
I don’t know what’s going on here. I didn’t I I try to bring as much patience as I can, you know, to this and as much support. And I will say I think sometimes being wired the way I am, people look to uh maybe kind of uh take advantage of that. You know, like you know, New York is filled with a lot of tough people and I think a lot of bullies, you know, to become successful here, you kind of have to sometimes, you know, step on people and mo people down, which is not how I’m wired. But I think a lot of people who live here and who are successful here might be that way. Um, so it’s often hard, I gotta be honest with you. You know, I’m I’m sensitive and it’s not always the best thing to be is a sensitive real estate broker. Uh and my feelings get hurt, you know, and which kind of leads into the parenting thing. You know, when when Jack was home and he was younger and I had rough days, you know, like you guys know because you’re you’re dads, you know, like what feels better than getting a hug from your kid?
David:
I mean, especially an unprompted out of the blue, just walk into the hallway hug. Yeah.
Gavin:
Is there anything better than that? It goes right to the heart, you know, and yeah, talk about like the loneliness, you know, being an empty nester, like it’s hard not getting that. And even he’s a big kid, he’s gonna be 21 next month, which is crazy. Yeah, um, but those hugs that we get still feel as good.
David:
I remember feeling for the first time that I I’m pretty sensitive to, and I remember that for the first time feeling that like gutted knife opening my chest cavity, kind of feeling when my son went through a phase. I’m sure you guys have experienced this, where like he had a preferred parent, just out of the blue, no reason. I’ve always been that parent. Yeah. But like all of a sudden, out of the blue, when he would shut and fall and cry, I wasn’t allowed near him. Oh don’t touch me, don’t look at me, don’t hold me. For and and I was just like, I was reading every fucking article, and I would Google every night, and every link was purple. Like I had read everything I possibly could. I was like, what am I doing wrong? I’ve tried all the things. Why does my kid hate me? I didn’t do anything. I’m not the I’m not a dist I’m not a distant parent, I’m not the only parent. Like, um, but I just remember that feeling of like hearing him trip and cry and know I have to just sit here on the couch because how much does it hurt?
Gavin:
If they have a cut, you have the cut. Whatever they’re feeling is so and it’s so sensitive, it’s so painful.
David:
Yeah, and and and now I’m the preferred parent, and I’m like, I’m like, fuck you, husband, I’m the preferred parent.
Gavin:
See ya. Yeah, that’s right. Well, the preferred parent is generally the one who has the uh the ATM card, you know, linked to their phone. So I I I wear that with a you know badge of honor.
David:
Whoever can provide the most Korean masks. Absolutely.
Gavin:
Bribery is an essential element of uh very effective parenting. I am curious, one more professional question for you, especially as um a sensitive person who thinks about wellness and kindness and whatnot, what is harder or what was harder? Being a talent agent or being a real estate agent? Oh man.
Gavin:
Yeah, they were both challenging because you’re taking care of people who have deep needs and who approach a process with insecurity. You know, Gavin, you know, you know, as an entertainer and being in the arts, you could be at the top of your game, but you’re vulnerable to critics and rejection and being hired or fired and reviews. It’s devastating, it’s so sensitive, it’s so tricky. And like we were talking about with Jack, you know, like I feel my son’s pain, I feel my client’s pain. Um so they were both super challenging. I would say, you know, the thing that that helps with real estate is that you have a transaction that you’re working towards, and when something closes, there’s a celebration and there’s a sense of completion. And, you know, it’s so hard as an artist to work for years and want your work to be heard or appreciated or acknowledged. And, you know, the need for approval and recognition is so is so acute. And it would sometimes break my heart, you know, when I would be part of that process with someone for a long time and not have them, you know, find a home for a script that they’ve been working on or a book or a or a play. You know, it’s uh that was hard, you know, because it’s sometimes the transaction of real estate um makes it easier because you’re working towards a very specific goal.
David:
And like you’re saying, with real estate, like there’s the goal, and then the goal is the end of your experience with them until the next one, versus a talent agent where let’s say you’re like, oh, I just always I want to be on Broadway and they get their Broadway show. We all know that the goalpost just moves. Great. Now that I’ve got a Broadway show, I want to do two Broadway shows. Now I want to do a principal role, now I want to do TV, now I want to do film. The goal is always moving in talent. So always moving. That is that is probably even uh that that’s probably why uh you know we’ve all had a million agents and managers. That’s a probably a hard part, is like you got the thing you wanted, now what’s the next thing?
Gavin:
It’s really, it’s really tricky, and I think so much more even now. Um, you know, when I was an agent, I was primarily focusing on independent film. That does that first of all, that’s not even a world that I think exists anymore. I mean, I was a film agent, I was you know, for young writer directors and aspiring filmmakers, so like that whole world, my every client that I was selling to with Miramax and Newline and Fine Line and uh Shooting Gallery, all these you know October films, none of these buyers exist anymore. So, like, and it seems like everything is television. I used to live for going to films, and uh so that makes me sad. I I miss the independent film world. Everything seems to be so money driven now, you know, and success is so uh dependent on you know a financial success and if something you know becomes a series or you know has ten seasons to it. I I missed I miss independent film, you know, where it was about artistic voices, uh, which of course is still out there, but not not the same way.
Gavin:
Something you’ve just said um triggered something more for me that I recently read an article in The Atlantic about the secret to happiness. And how um there was a study done of that this journalist was studying essentially celebrities and uh just plain famous people, and how it’s so incredibly difficult to maintain happiness because of the goalpost theory that we’re just talking about here, where um it’s never enough. Oh, it excuse me, it was celebrities and being wealthy, and that um when you’re focused on just being a celebrity or just being wealthy, those people are the least happy because there’s it’s just never enough, it’s never enough, and that so much of it is about being grounded and understanding, being grateful for what you have, essentially. Gratitude is so massive. Are those, assuming you agree, are though are any lessons in there that you were actually frankly able to bring from well just life, but also your talent world that you were able to instill in Jack to let him know how to be happy?
Gavin:
That is so that is such a good question. Um, you know what? I think what came what came to mind as soon as you said that was comparison, you know, comparison. And when you’re an artist, uh you know, if you compare yourself to someone else’s success, it could be devastating. You know, if you use uh a Meryl Streep or a Susan Sarandon or you know, an icon, you know, if you never heard of them, compare yourself to never heard of them. You know, and it’s and I’m much more lowbrow here. You’re much more lowbrow. You know, so if you think about like growing up in New York as a kid, and you could have a nice life, but there’s always someone with a much more fabulous life who has, you know, the house in the Hamptons or the Aspen whatever, or they don’t fly, you know, commercial planes, or you know, there is so much wealth here and there’s so much to compare to, and so much success, which is so similar, I think, for artists, and also very similar in real estate. Um, and with social media, we’re all comparing ourselves to everyone else anyway, and everyone seems like they have more going on and more success, and they look younger and they have better vacations. I think, you know, from parenting I would say that as well, which is to try to instill gratitude for simple things with your kid. Because they’re gonna grow up feeling like nothing’s ever good enough, you know, and they don’t have enough and and their friends are happier and people are more athletic and better students. Uh it’s hard being a kid now. You know, we didn’t know we we were comparing ourselves to someone maybe that we would read in a magazine or, you know, we didn’t have that instant feedback that everyone has now. Um so I I love the word gratitude and it’s a practice that I employ in my life in so many different ways. But I would say that, you know, is is somehow encouraging our kids to find happiness within the smaller victories, so they’re not comparing themselves as much to what seems like these very flashy, sexy goals all around them, which are unattainable because we know it’s not reality, right? Right. The image is not reality.
David:
But you know what is reality? Tacos. Tacos, particularly sexy tacos.
Gavin:
Yeah. I’m gonna put my tofu taco recipe in the chat box.
David:
Mike, yeah, I want you to understand that like this is gonna be your new career. You’re gonna be you’re gonna make your first billion at this new tofu taco. Yeah, yeah.
Gavin:
Do you want to know the secret is frying the tofu in lard? Oh. Wait.
Gavin:
What do you mean by too? I thought you were gonna say bacon fat?
Gavin:
Do you know what the secret is?
David:
Beef.
Gavin:
See, tofu gives a little meatiness if you cook it in animal fat.
David:
Yeah. It’s amazing how that works, huh?
Gavin:
It’s amazing how that works. And somehow, yeah, you can still call yourself plant-based.
David:
Can you? Can you based? I’m based out of Manhattan. Girl, you live in Queens. We get it.
Gavin:
Did you inflict your veganism upon poor Jack as well?
Gavin:
Thank God, no. I’m so happy. Oh, good for you. No. Good. I wanted him to grow up eating cheeseburgers and ribs and tacos that are real tacos. That poor kid had enough pressure. I didn’t want to pressure him with being high maintenance food-wise as well. I’m so happy he’s he loves cheeseburgers. I can’t even tell you.
Gavin:
Well, so speaking of um high maintenance and and kids, um full disclosure, we met essentially because you used to organize what I used to like calling an unoff you were that you were the unofficial president of an unofficial gay dads group. And that you for many, many years maintained a magnificent community of just gay dads. Anybody was invited. There wasn’t any exclusivity to it. I was introduced to you, I think, via email, and you were like, great, come along to the next event, and it was just fantastic. And I couldn’t believe how many guys were there. And I would imagine you founded it out of um necessity for community, but don’t let me put those words into your mouth. Can you tell us about how it started and um what it meant to you?
Gavin:
And I wish, and honestly, I wish I still did it. You know, I wish I kept it up. It started to become unwieldy, you know, because more and more dads were joining and it could have become a you know full-time uh practice for me. It was as you said, it was started at a necessity. Yeah, we didn’t have any other dads in our lives who had similar stories to ours, and we felt lonely and we didn’t know about being parents, and we didn’t have a pediatrician, and we didn’t know, you know, how to apply to schools. I think it’s so much easier to be a straight parent because you’re all of your friends are going through your same life stages, and especially, you know, twenty years ago, eighteen years ago, where you had you know, figure out how do I find uh you know the right dentist or how do I know what schools to apply to. There were so many questions. Camp. You could write a book on just like you know, being a parent and figuring out the camp situation, which growing up in LA was not even a question, but like, as you know, like New York, day camp, overnight camp, like that alone required, you know, ten different opinions. So it was based out of necessity, and we wanted more dads in our lives, and it grew from one other dad, uh, you know, was so to when I somewhat quasi-retired it, you know, there were 90 dads on that email list. And it also kind of ended where, you know, the parent the dads were all so busy, it became really, really difficult to figure out like how to coordinate these events, you know, because all these dads are you know were were you know busy and had a lot going on, so it it became hard to try and also frankly, thank goodness, we didn’t need it as much because so many more dads knew other dads, so they didn’t feel alone. We felt really alone and and confused and lost.
David:
And I think that’s uh that that is part of the social media, like you know, we we joke around about social media and TikTok and Instagram and how shitty and stupid and you know, whatever it is. But that that has been a saving grace for us as relatively new gay parents, in that like those communities that you that you helped build exist now at my fingertips in Facebook groups. I’m I’m a member of you know, gay fathers on Facebook groups is huge, it’s it’s national, but there’s local uh gay groups, there’s New York gay groups, there’s men having babies, which helps men to understand how to become parents. There’s so much more access to that stuff. Where at the time when you created that group, there maybe wasn’t. But that’s I’m so thankful for those communities. Now there’s like gay comedy dad groups, and you know, there’s like so many so many great diverse places that just didn’t exist when you started this. And I I I can’t imagine how hard it would be to do that when you didn’t have somebody to be like, when do I stop doing bottles? How do I like how you know it’s crazy? Yeah.
Gavin:
20 something years ago, the internet was not what it is now, you know, where we didn’t have access to, you know, right now we Google whatever we need and it’s immediate. You know, there wasn’t as much online then, which is so crazy to think about. Like, but 20 years ago, the internet was such a different world. And I would love for us to be uh, you know, role models or or information sources for dads, because so many guys like yourself do have younger kids, and I kind of feel like you know, we’re kind of on the older spectrum. You’re an elder. And we’re an elder, you’re a gatriarch or elder. It’s just crazy. I mean, I can’t believe when I say that our son is almost 21.
David:
So, how do you feel about soon, maybe you could be a gay grandfather? How does that feel? Please don’t hang up on this.
Gavin:
Well, I have to tell you something. That is my greatest if you were to say, or if anyone were to ask me, that is my yeah, that would be my greatest joy. Yeah. And no pressure, Jack, if you ever listen to this. And he knows this, and he also I think wants to be a dad. You can’t imagine how much uh we would want that. And Tom and I have actually uh joked about it because if Jack were to become a dad someday and he lived in North Dakota or Iowa or another country, I would I’d be I’d move there. You know, wherever he is, I wanted to be a hands-on grandpa. I can’t imagine only seeing them at holidays. And I think he’ll be in New York because you know, the everyone he’s grown up with is here. But if he has kids and he’s living elsewhere, I’m gonna be right down that block, whether he likes it or not.
David:
My mom fell into that. She she was a little unsure about being a grandparent. She was struggling with the whole like, you know, age thing. It does that, I mean that means I’m old now. She is so drank the Kool-Aid. She is like, it’s the best. I get to, I get to buy them gifts, I get to play with them. And then when they’re being annoying, I’m like, bye, go to dad’s. Like, she has found the lane that I think I dream of, which is like, I get to do all the good parts. That’s right.
Gavin:
I don’t have to do any of the bad parts, have all the fun. That is my number one dream, I would say.
Gavin:
What is the term gonna be for gay grandpa? Gilfs?
Gavin:
Gilf grand. I want to be the guilty. Yes. That’s my goal.
David:
That’s my new from Dilf to GIF. I’m gonna give you the next.
Gavin:
I’m gonna get a uh a gold necklace, you know, like a nameplate necklace, guilf.
Gavin:
Gilf. Gilf. I mean, grand granddaddies deserve to uh the minera groove on as well. I’m telling you guys. There is you heard it here first.
David:
Okay tofu tacos and gilf uh gold plated necklace, right?
Gavin:
Grills.
Gavin:
Just a couple more questions before we let you go. Um, and thank you for spending so much time with us.
Gavin:
Oh man, I I want to be, I hate to wrap it up. I love being with you guys.
Gavin:
Well, most you know what, um, I am curious, do you have any horror stories from the dad’s group? Was there ever a time you got everybody together and just all shit went went crazy, or were there ever was there ever in infighting or a a splinter group that took off and they were gonna be like, we’re gonna take down Mike Lubin’s group with our own gay gang of dads?
Gavin:
I would say it would be the 50% of the eye rolls, uh, you know, that would happen if the dad didn’t like the uh cuisine offered at the uh you know ice skate party or something. You know, gay dads are a tough crowd to impress, right? You kind of have a high bar of of uh uh decoration and and setting and menu options.
David:
I hear that, and it’s it sounds so foreign to me because literally for dinner last night, part of what I ate was a tea-wing cracker I found on the ground. I’m not even joking. I put that in my mouth because I was so hungry and there was such chaos, and I was like, well, it’s technically food.
Gavin:
Was it delicious?
David:
No, it’s terrible.
Gavin:
No, it sounds like our standards have lowered. Sounds kind of sounds like a yummy little cookie to me. Um, I would say it was that. Like I kind of felt that was also a little bit why I retired it, is that I kind of felt like it was a little bit hard to keep the guys entertained and engaged when there’s such a high level of expectation when you live a really fabulous life and have three houses and and a home chef. Um so I would say it was that. You know, like I think there’s a humbleness that should accompany being a parent, in my mind, you know, which is appreciating basic, simple things. We don’t it doesn’t have to be fancy.
David:
But that’s what’s hard is that like at and even now, but especially in 2000, like to be c to be able to be a gay dad at that time had to come with some sort of privilege. And usually that was financial, right? So like that’s why like every you know, I see a lot in the gay dads groups, a lot of people have like night nannies right away and stuff like that. And I think it looks strange to a lot of people, but what they don’t realize is that like they had to have all of this money to even get to the point of having a kid. So like it’s it seems um like a uh uh not a biased group, but a um it it it does it’s so I can I understand what you mean. That the guy all of a sudden the guys that you get together seem like they’re all of this like certain class. Well, it’s because the people who wanted to have kids and wanted to be a gay dad but didn’t have the money just were excluded, right? That’s right.
Gavin:
You know, which is a sad reality, which I know I think is hopefully it’s a bit more of a democratic process now. I think there’s financing. You know, I believe that you know you could have financing for this process, which is incredible. It needs to be democratized. And I also think because there’s because there’s more competition, I hope that pricing becomes more accessible for people. Because this is this has been the greatest joy of my life. And say and Tom would say the exact same thing as well. Nothing else matters, and you guys know like what matters other than like your kids’ happiness and their well-being and what whatever that is. No vacation, no pair of shoes, no, nothing you could ever buy or do is remotely on par with what we feel as being a dad. I mean, it just it does nothing else matters. Um one thing I I I will say, and I know we’re wrapping up, but one of the great joys we had uh that I hope you guys are doing or will do is was traveling with Jack, you know, and it doesn’t even have to be anywhere fancy or exotic or that’s of course fun too. But like bringing your kid to a different city and seeing the world through their eyes, you know, where there’s a different language, a different culture, was really kind of uh this amazing magical experience, you know, and and having him grow up once a year, we would try to take him to you know some some place, whether you know, whether it was uh another state, another city, or another country. And that was and and frankly that had its challenges too. Not every place is welcoming to or confused by two dads showing up with a kid. That was confusing to a lot of people in a lot of different cities. Um but that was one of our great joys was was taking him on the road and then having these experiences with him.
Gavin:
Um finally, to wrap up here, I have a really, really burning question. Hope it doesn’t um offend and barrist or throw you too off track. Who is your hair inspiration? Because oh my god, Mike Lubin, you have just the best hair.
Gavin:
I love you so much. Thank you so much. You um all right, so that’s this is kind of me being who I am. Like there’s an answer to you. Like I grew up into like independent music, and I grew up in LA in the 80s. It was all about, you know, a little counterculture and a little new wave, and I kind of feel as I’ve gotten older, I want to be as authentic to me as I can be. And you know, I have lots of tattoos all over myself, though none are visible. If I’m wearing a long sleeve shirt, Tom says you better not get one on your neck, which is never gonna happen. But um, I kind of feel like I grew my hair out into the hairstyle that reminds me a little bit of being younger, and I’m very grateful to you know be able to have a little fun with the way I dress and the way the music I used to listen to and the concerts I go to. So this is just kind of Mike being a little bit of a kid. I want to stay, I always want to feel like I’m still a kid. I never want to grow out of that, and that’s that’s some that’s the way I want to live.
Gavin:
As I started out saying, you are the daddy that we all aspire to be. And I can’t wait till you’re the guilf with the tats and the badass hair, even if it all goes silver, which by the way, you would look fantastic with uh that that mane being all silver. Uh Mike Tatted Gilf.
David:
Yes, thank you for joining us and so much for being here and demeaning yourself by being on our podcast.
Gavin:
Taco Tuesday. I’m gonna put the recipe on the uh, you know, in the uh fan on the fan page. And remember, Lard, that’s the key ingredient.
unknown:
Yeah.
David:
Beef. That’s the thing, Gideon in another that’s a key ingredient in a vegan taco, beef.
Gavin:
I cannot wait for a hundred of listeners to hear this and re- and get your taco, your tofu taco uh recipe. Thank you, Mike. I love you guys.
David:
Love you too. Bye-bye. So this week, something great, Gavin. What is something great that happened to you this week?
Gavin:
There’s a lot, awful lot of Hallmark card sentiments out there about the simple moments and how to communicate with kids, and it’s the this, that, and the other, and the best ways of getting your kids to talk. Well, I have discovered something that I’m sure a million people gave me the advice about, and sometimes you just have to discover stuff yourself, which is when I’m able to kick a soccer ball with my kid, she totally opens up to me. The rest of the time, I can ask her a million questions, and she just gives me guttural monosyllabic answers. When we are doing an activity together side by side, she won’t shut up to the degree that I’m like, can you just focus on the soccer ball, please? But it’s fantastic. And I it’s a something great when she just opens up and chatters and chatters.
David:
And what about you? My something great is not as romantic as yours, of course. Uh, mine is something, it’s a toy. So listen, your your house, if you’re not a parent yet or you’re a parent of a baby, get ready, kids. I know you think you’re gonna be the cool dads with no toys. Your house will be full of plastic garbage in no time. So um, one of the pieces of plastic garbage that I find really great and really fun is something called magic tracks. And I hadn’t even heard of them. Yeah. I hadn’t heard of them until I until somebody gave them to us. It is these plastic, like little um like uh little like little tracks, and they all are connected and they all can kind of bend and move in whatever way you want. And then you put these cars that are battery powered and they just the wheels just turn and they kind of follow the track that you’ve created. So it’s kind of like those like wooden train sets, except for things are like plastic and they can go in any direction, you can constantly change their shape, and the cars always follow the track. It is a really fun gift. I think my favorite kind of toys for kids are the ones that have almost really broad and generic and could do a ton of different things, like you know, um magnet tiles, those kind of things. So so this is one of those things. So if you’re looking for a gift to give your friends who have um, you know, three plus ish year old kids um or want something, magic tracks, totally worth it.
Gavin:
Love it. Those are new. I think that we I don’t know that we’ve aged out of them, but they definitely weren’t invented uh, you know, just a couple of years ago, or I didn’t know about them. So uh I’m I’m kind of jealous. And that’s our show. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments, you can email us at gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.
David:
Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast. On the internet, David is at DavidFM Vaughn everywhere, and Gavin is at GavinLodge on nothing. Please leave us a glowing five star review wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks, and we’ll see you next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.