Full Transcript
Thanks. And we’ll see you next time on another social media episode.
unknown:
Sorry.
Gavin:
Thanks. And we’ll see you next time when you watch our Instagram stories of our podcast. Uh and listen to us on another episode of Gatriarchs. Thanks. And we’ll see you next time on social media when you get to watch our outtakes. And we can’t wait to talk at you on another episode of Gatriarchs. Thanks, and we’ll jump towards you next time on another episode of Thanks.
David:
And maybe next time Gavin will just read the copy and do a recording. Oh shit, Steve. Okay. And this is Gatriarch. So we have a little back deck, and we’re sitting outside, and it’s one of those rare moments with my daughter who’s one and a half, where she’s sitting in my lap. She’s calm. She’s like tracing her fingers on my face. It’s very sweet. She keeps like looking behind me and she’s looking at the birds. And she just takes her finger and she just drags it down my face, right? And she’s like doing this side of my face and like almost like she’s painting. And it’s really sweet. And I just have one of those moments that was like, finally, there’s a moment of peace. There’s a moment of just like she’s not crying. There’s nothing, there’s no chaos happening. She’s just enjoying this thing. And then I’m like, why don’t you keep looking behind me? And I turn around and I look at the railing that I’m sitting next to, and I’m realizing she’s dipping her fingers into bird shit and she’s drawing it down my face in this beautiful moment.
Gavin:
Oh. See, this is why you don’t go for gratitude.
David:
This is why you don’t go for gratitude. You know, it’s yeah. Children are disgusting. Disgusting. Anyway, that’s how my week started.
Gavin:
Well, my week started, uh, my kids are at summer camp all week long. And theoretically, that means it’s just been nothing but like sex, drugs, and rock and roll all week long. Let me tell you. Um, it’s really just like I gotta catch, I can finally feel like I’m catching up on, you know, shit. But we started out and we were dropping the kids off, and we said, What do you want for you know your last supper, your last meal? They said McDonald’s, and we were like, that tracks. So we go to McDonald’s, and I was not aware because I we don’t go to McDonald’s that much, that McDonald’s is having a whole promotion about Grimace’s birthday. Okay. Now I know that I’m much older than you are, David. So you with you and your youth, do you even have any idea who Grimace is?
David:
Of course, he’s the big purple monster.
Gavin:
Right, but nobody else knows who the purple monster is, right? They don’t have I don’t think they don’t have Saturday morning cartoons anymore.
David:
The the whole thing will remember the hamburglar, but I think Grimace are a whole bunch of them.
Gavin:
My kids, yeah, and the the Fry Guys and the Hamburglar and whatnot. Well, that’s all from the what? 80s. My kids have absolutely no idea who Grimace is, uh whatsoever. But they just know they see a big purple thing and a milkshake, and it’s Grimace’s birthday, and they’re like, I want that. So we did end up getting Grimace’s birthday uh milkshakes, and they we passed the milkshake around trying to figure out what fruity flavor it was, which might have just been like fruity milk left over from fruity pebbles. And uh, but anyway, I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole to be like, what is up with the does anybody else know who Grimace is? And I didn’t realize that I mean, because I’m yeah, uh not it completely on TikTok all the time, that it’s a whole TikTok meme right now where people are making videos about sipping the milkshakes and then immediately cutting to a murder scene where usually people have like poured the milkshake out on their faces like they’ve just been killed by Grimace. And it just makes me so happy. The creativity is endless, and I fucking I’m here for it. But my kids still don’t know who Grimace is. And frankly, when they get back from camp tomorrow, I can’t wait to show them that they need to make their own Grimace murder scene.
David:
So I’ve been in Doctrine, I think I told you a couple weeks ago, every week we’re doing a new like 90s band that I’m playing in the car as we go here. This week is Spice Girls Week. And I was very excited because I was like, I love Spice Girls. Name more than two Spice Girl songs. You can’t because they only had literally two hits. So I kind of ran out of.
Gavin:
I okay. I was uh I my college uh my senior in college, all of my roommates and I were the Spice Girls for Halloween. I was Baby Spice because I was blonder then. And my I will say, I’m not I’m not gonna throw anybody under the bus here, but I was not a huge fan. I like I just I don’t know, I was I was distracted by other shit, but I didn’t go full in. But my my roommates kind of ironically became huge Spice Girls fans, and so we really knew all of the songs. All now, can I name them? I don’t know, but we did go see Colors of the World or whatever the spice Spice World, the movie opening night. And it was us and a bunch of like Taylor Swift fans from the mid-90s, you know, the equivalent of. We were by far, no, we weren’t creepy old men, but we were like the weirdos from college who were in the opening night of the movie. So years ago, I uh was lucky enough to travel to Africa.
SPEAKER_00:
I was in a chicken bus in the middle of somewhere in uh Kenya, normal, and I suddenly heard colors of the world, every boy and every killer life.
Gavin:
And I was like, why do I know the lyrics to this song? And I couldn’t, it took me a while to figure out which song it was, and then I realized they were playing that whole album, and I really knew the songs better than I realized.
David:
So that’s the thing about like the early 90s that’s so different, or even the 80s and 70s, I guess, is that there were only a there were a finite amount of songs, so you just hear them a lot. Now there are billions of artists that you don’t even know about. No, that you don’t even know about. So, like back in the day, there was like eight songs that would play in the radio. So, of course, you would learn all eight songs. Um, but speaking of indoctrination, this is just a rant, and I swear we’ll move on to our guests who are really great. Or no, our top three list. But so there’s this episode of Radio Lab, and it’s called American-ish. And it was talking about people who aren’t fully American for whatever reason. And they were interviewing this woman, and she was a lesbian, and she lived in American Samoa. And they were talking about, would you want to be fully American? And she’s like, Well, no, I like living here. And they were like, But you can, you know, you can’t get married here. It’s illegal here in America. You could. And she goes, Well, I’m a Republican. And my brain, of course, went to, what the fuck? This, this, this sect of people who join groups that hate them. And I just I’m always fascinated in the darkest way of why. And then she said this thing, and it broke my heart. She goes, Because I’d rather be rich than be married. And so what broke my heart about it was not that she was wrong or she was misinformed, was that she fully believed that republicanism equals being rich. So she’s like, I don’t have to marry my wife if I can be this rich person. And it broke my heart because that is that grift that keeps that fucking train running.
Gavin:
Anyway, that’s my that is absolutely yes. The the the the false idea and the false narrative that that American dream is equal to is available for anybody who just works hard enough. And that illusion that we can all become millionaires and billionaires living that American dream if we’re just taxed less and more hateful. I mean, we did it by starting this podcast, and now we’re millionaires from all the income we’re getting. And and and we’ll probably be Republicans by this time next year. So, like I said, the kids are at summer camp this week. Right. And it was so interesting because for once we weren’t in a hurry. They we didn’t have to drive very far. And so we had like the whole morning on Saturday to kind of hang out before we took off. And all of us were kind of at a loss of what to do because we had a couple hours to kill. And I started not nervously, but I’m like, well, this is a good time to, I don’t know, clean up the kitchen a little bit, do some vacuuming, even though should I be like really bonding with my children right now? Should we be doing something as if this is some, as if this is some, I don’t know, huge rite of passage that they need to have quality time for their last memories with their dads? No, fuck that. They just wanted to be on their devices, right? So I was like, okay, just have your because they obviously do not have them at camp. So I’m just vacuuming and whatnot. And I, but I did start to feel this little sense of like, is this what it’s gonna be like when they go to college? And am I gonna be so almost, well, obviously bereft, but am I not gonna know what to do with my time? So I’m like, I think I’ll just vacuum before I take my kid to college. And and feeling really getting into my head about like, this is uh something, I need to make this momentous, or I need to make use of my time, or I’m just gonna sit down and I don’t know, not know what to do with myself because of this sense of impending doom. And I so basically, you know, that was how I suddenly felt like, uh, my kids are going to college. I mean camp, and I don’t know what to do with myself. It was um, it was an interesting downward spiral of my rabbit hole brain in the moment. Speaking of downward spirals, let’s move to judgment, shall we? Judging how other people parent their children. So this week’s top three list is the three worst behaviors you’ve witnessed in other parents. Number three for me goes back a few years when I was actually talking to somebody, a parent, who said to me, Well, what’s the big difference if my kid does cocaine someday? I mean, I did it and I’m fine. And I thought, holy shit. Now I know that’s gonna sound super cocaine for babies. I mean, I know this is gonna sound all of this is gonna sound super prudish, especially when I look at my list. And hey, you do you and be safe and don’t hurt other people, but I’m not sure that the idea that why can’t my kids do cocaine because I did it and I’m fine is uh really the way we want to raise kids, right? Number two, not being aware of what’s going on on your kids’ iPads or iPhones. Now, listen, I my kids are behind closed doors with their devices an awful lot of the time, but I do have some semblance of an idea of what’s going on. And when I hear a group of kids together listening and a bunch of eight-year-olds or nine-year-olds listening to songs about doggy style and um having sex, which is actually something that I witnessed recently. And the parent was sitting there with me and was completely oblivious to any of it going on. And I’m like, Don’t you have how are you filtering out the entire world around you? So having some semblance of understanding what’s going on in your um kids’ devices, I think is uh pretty important. And then finally, number one for me, screaming on the sidelines of a soccer game, aside from just general support, but belittling your children from the sidelines is something that I just cannot abide. And I don’t know, I all parents should just be muzzled on the side of the soccer um sidelines. So for me, those are three obnoxious behaviors that I will never take part in. Um, David, are you just dying because this is also sincere and uh serious? No, I’m about to fuck that up.
David:
Um so in number three for me, and this is slightly serious, is when other parents will yell at their kids in front of me for me. Like there’s this like performative way of like get your fucking ass in the car, and they look at me like this douchebag, am I right? And I’m like, yes, your kid is a douche, but also like don’t yell at him extra because you’re performing for me. Yeah, like that’s always super annoying. Um, number two, baby talk. When fucking parents talk baby talk to either their babies or their pets or to anybody, I hate you and I hate. And number three, the three I think the number one worst thing about other parents is when they’re a better parent than I am.
SPEAKER_05:
Fuck those people.
David:
Oh, I’m like, stop being better than me. Uh that’s my number one. Uh next week totally relatable. Next week, we’re gonna keep it clean. Oh next, usually my job. We’re gonna do something easy and fun and has nothing to do with kids. Good. Next week, what are your top three favorite curse words or phrases?
Gavin:
Oh fuck yeah, that’s gonna be good.
David:
All right, so our next guests are two gay dads who recently wrote a book called A Kids Book About Gay Parents, which I’m sure is currently being banned as we speak in Florida. Um, they live in Vermont, they have four adopted children, and they just got into the gay parenting podcast racket too.
SPEAKER_00:
Come on into this pool.
David:
Please welcome Little Corner of the Gay Parenting World, Jonathan and Thomas West. Woohoo! Boy No. Hey guys, good morning. You guys are in the podcasting racket now too, and it’s just a huge drift.
SPEAKER_04:
So, no, when we so when we had our first episode and we introduced ourselves, we’re like, Yeah, we’re jumping into the podcast world. And I was like, what did I say? I was like, we’re jumping into the to the pool. No, I said the pool, yeah, which is literally not, absolutely not. There are almost in some sense in some ways, there are too many podcasts. Of course. So I was like, wait, we’re not jumping into the pool, we’re jumping into the ocean, ocean, and it’s crowded of people.
Gavin:
Coney island, Coney Island on the 4th of July, uh, levels of crowdedness.
David:
But just syringes in your feet, band-aids stuck to you that aren’t yours.
Gavin:
But you guys are the only ones who have your hat, your branded hats of daddy and papa. Do you ever switch hats just to screw around with your audience?
SPEAKER_04:
Well, actually, our second episode, we first, our one of our mics wasn’t turned on. Nice. Which we found out after the fact, and we still we we kind of just went with it. And I didn’t realize that I was wearing a daddy hat, which I’m which is totally fine, but that’s not the name I go by.
SPEAKER_06:
No, right, and he didn’t notice, I didn’t notice. Yeah, we went through the entire thing. I’m like staring at his head the entire podcast, and then I realized we keep looking back at the video, and we’re like, oh, that’s not that’s not.
David:
I mean, you are a daddy, but every other gay parent in the whole world is mad at you for grabbing the Instagram handle at daddy and papa. Are you fucking kidding me? You nailed that. I mean, you got it. That was the one, and now, yeah, you guys are daddyandpapa.com too.
SPEAKER_04:
I mean, it’s like No, and we weren’t the first to jump in as like the gay, queer parents on it’s on Instagram or just social media in general. But I looked it up at when well, this is what, like 2017, 2016? Yeah. I looked it up and I’m like, oh my god, it’s open.
SPEAKER_06:
Well, even if I grabbed it real quick because we were using something else that went to the city. Now, isn’t Neopatrick Harris daddy and papa too?
Gavin:
Or are they papa and daddy? We’ll ask him next week when he’s on the podcast. Yeah. That’s for you. He’s on the MPH, yeah. Um now, now, did you guys name yourselves after social media or did your social media uh take your names? Like you had you already decided on the daddy and papa-ness?
SPEAKER_06:
Yeah, we yeah, we decided. Uh my dad actually was was papa to some of our some of the other grandkids. So I didn’t want that confusion to be like I’m papa and he’s papa. So uh I took daddy and he took papa.
David:
What about Mr. West? I always try to get my kids to call me Mr. Vaughn and it’s not sticking.
SPEAKER_06:
Yeah. So even when I was a teacher, they still called me Mr. John. But not daddy, so which is good. No, that would have been a little weird.
David:
That would have been an uncomfortable conversation.
SPEAKER_04:
Because I was like 21. No, but here funny, funny-ish story. So we use we use daddy and papa in a lot of different places. So obviously, it’s our social media names, it’s on our it’s literally in our fucking hats. Um, we’ve even started to use like to to you know how you have to fill in your name for your on the Starbucks app. At one point, I had it written as it’s Britney, and I was trying to put in it’s Britney bitch to make someone actually say that. Nice. So but you can’t write which is great foreshadowing. I could only write it’s Britney. Um so it was it was that for like a week or two. And then he changed it to say for the first name daddy and papa. And then our since our last name’s West, West for our last name. Nice. So anyway, when they go to print the tickets when you make an order, it only writes out daddy. So if you do a pickup either in the drive-thru, you’re like, you know, I’m here for my the order, the name is daddy. Or if you go inside, they might have to say it. But here’s here’s the awful part. I got yelled at. I went into our local Starbucks and they had my drink off to the side. They I I had been standing there for so long that they’re like, What drink are you waiting for? And I told them, and they’re like, Oh, okay, here’s it. But then I had like a semi-manager or a manager come over to me and she goes, I just have to tell you, this is so inappropriate. You should not have written this name down. No way. At first, I was like, I was like, Who the fuck are you? Yeah, telling me that I can’t use the name that my four children call me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Not me, but my husband. Um, so that was my first reaction. I was like, wait a minute, that’s actually my name. What’s wrong with you saying daddy? Or would you say if someone used the name mom and came in or mommy or mama, would you be like, oh, this is so inappropriate? I’m not gonna, you know, you should be able to do it.
David:
Or was she reading it as like, daddy? Is that how she was reading it?
SPEAKER_04:
That’s how she’s been reading it. So she I actually left. Like it was a it was a decent conversation. I was like, okay, I get it. But then I came back because we already had our book printed and published, and I was like, I I want to make sure that you understand we’re not using it for any other reason other than this is what we go by. Yeah. Um, but then she gave me the explanation. She’s like, we’ve had multiple, obviously creepy men pulk come through the drive-thru and they’re like, What name do you want on the cup? Or or they go in through the the front, you know, the door of the register, and they’re like, What name do you want on the cup? And these 60-year-old guys are like, Call me daddy. Oh, Jesus. And it’s mate, yeah, and it’s so many of the of the people at start that local Starbucks feel uncomfortable that I walk in and they’re like, Oh, here’s someone else using that name. Yeah.
David:
Well, maybe next time you should have it like change your name to the cum dumpster, just to like be really clear. Like, like here, like we’re this is a strictly gay thing.
Gavin:
I am not prepared on children.
David:
Well, speaking of cum dumpster, tell us how you met. Manhunt? Manhunt. So we talked to so we had some guests on who had met on Manhunt as well, but that those were the days of like Manhunt, Adam for Adam, where like you had to log into a browser to meet people. Yeah. Which is wild. So antiquated.
SPEAKER_06:
It’s the grinder of the grinder of the early 2000s, right? Totally. I mean, uh listen, I I graduated from college. I had an opportunity to become a music teacher. That’s kind of what I was the road I was headed down. And I knew a guy who worked, had a had a business in Florida, and he’s like, hey, if you want to completely change things up, come move to Florida and work in my real estate business. In the middle of the absolute, like the the the bottom of the market in 2005 when everything was falling out. So I moved down there, but literally the before things started. I knew I was gonna move there. I started like checking out who’s online in in in uh in Florida. As you do. This guy was like this guy was the only person who was under the age of 70.
David:
And had all his teeth.
SPEAKER_06:
Yes, at that time, yeah. And you know, from Lily, from the first day I was there, we we met up and we just kind of hit it off and we we were together ever since. Yeah, so that was 2005.
Gavin:
I mean, that’s uh I hey it we kind of giggle that you met on uh Manhunt, but like why not? This is uh this is a modern era and uh look what’s it’s come of. In the theater world, we sometimes talk about showmances that are only supposed to last for the run of a show, but hey, it’s uh it’s another form of like how many gay rel long-term gay relationships started as like a one-time, like, hey, let’s go home from the bar, like most of them.
SPEAKER_06:
I mean, well, and and and really, I mean, coming from a small town in Vermont to kind of I mean, relatively a small conservative town in Florida, I mean, it’s it’s not that easy to find someone.
SPEAKER_07:
Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:
So um, I think it was just kind of serendipitous. And you for for for Thomas, I mean, he was he was coming back from Tallahassee, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:
No, at at the time I was almost finished with my bachelor’s degree at Florida State University. Alma mater. I was like a I was like a six-year senior. That’s a that so I had to come home and take a break. Do your FSE too. Oh yeah.
David:
No, I I I went to Florida State. I I can tell you, we we can trade stories for days about all the all the goings on. You know, people forget that. Like Florida State is 10 minutes from Alabama, 10 minutes from Georgia. You’re in the panhill like really you are in the swamp, the deep people are like the deep. You went Florida, oh, beaches and Miami, and blah blah blah. You’re like, no, no, no, no, no, honey.
SPEAKER_04:
I think it’s out of those years that I was at Florida State, I went to the beach once, and it was in Wakula County. Yeah. Which is not really a beach. And from my hometown, it was a six-hour drive, one way.
David:
So you ended up going, Thomas, you ended up going into the military, right? Tell us a little bit about that. That’s I come from a military family. I’m always fascinated by it. Um, but tell us a little bit about your military experience.
SPEAKER_04:
Yeah. So in twenty uh 2000 is when I graduated high school. So that’s when I was about 18, 18, 19. Um, and that’s when I wanted to enlist, but for whatever reason I didn’t and went to Florida State. And it was at that point that I re I basically started coming out and um and at the same time started to understand what it would have meant to be in the military with don’t ask, don’t tell. Um after 2001, 9-11 basically, I wanted to enlist again, but there was that part of me that was like, I don’t feel I just didn’t feel right not being my authentic self. But there was still a large part of me that still wanted to enlist, but I didn’t, uh, and it wasn’t until President Obama, I forget the actual year, 2012 maybe um that sounds right, twenty thirteen. 2011, yeah. Um had made it literally had said, okay, you know, we knew the repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell was coming. So that’s when I said, Okay, now I really want to do it. And I think I was in my early 30s at that point. It was probably like a two-year process for me for me to enlist. But yeah, I I asked him, I don’t know, 50 times. I was like, hey, I want to enlist. And he’s like, no.
Gavin:
So I asked another 49 times and he’s like, okay. Can we go back 50 times and tell us what was your draw? What what made you want to enlist? And did Obama make you gay?
David:
Because he made a lot of people gay with that.
SPEAKER_04:
No, he totally made me gay. He he helped me enlist into what people that I served with referred to as the new army. So the first two years after the repeal of Don’t Ask Don’t Tell, all of the service members who were, I don’t know, had been there for a long time, I was gonna say assholes, would to my face, please don’t say that. And just kind of in my in my preference, in in my, you know, in my in range of me being able to hear it, would refer to not, I mean, basically people like me as the new army because I was out. There were some people who were married, um, and there were some very you know flamboyant 18, 19 year olds who were, you know, in the Air Force.
David:
Um we interviewed one of them on our show a couple months ago. Sure did. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Gavin:
They like to spread those wings and fly high. Good for them.
SPEAKER_04:
But yeah, I mean they so, anyways, I I went through this whole process. I wanted to enlist, and this is well, originally you wanted to enlist because of 9-11. Well, I wanted to enlist right out of high school, but then 9-11 happened and I wanted to enlist. But I think that gets to the point that I wanted to serve. I actually think as a as a really strong uh personal opinion that everyone should be required to serve in some way. So I don’t think everyone should be required to serve in the military, but I think everyone graduating from high school should be required to pick from enlisting in the military, joining the Peace Corps, or some sort of sense of the city. It’s common in a lot of other. Yeah, I mean, in in Israel, you have to.
Gavin:
Sister, we are going down that gratitude rabbit hole, which I absolutely love. In a world, hey, hey, in our world of entitled children, where you know, my we have kids almost of similar ages where I’m like, how do I help my kids realize how good they have it and how lucky lucky they have it to be born in this country and realize that you gotta play a part in society and some kind of service that takes you out of your selfishness as almost a rite of passage into your adulthood? That’s it’s a very necessary thing for society.
David:
But when they called it the new army, was that like a slur or was that a sign of respect? I can’t decide which one it was a slur of the response.
SPEAKER_04:
No, absolutely a slur. They’re like, oh, who’s this gay guy over here?
David:
Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:
Or, you know, I I mean, there was there were so many different changes happening, and that there were people who had been in the military for 10, 15, some of them 20 plus years, because you can serve more than 20 years, um, who, you know, did not think that this was the right move to make. Was it the majority? Was it the majority of the folks or just a very vocal minority? It was where I was stationed, it was not, it was definitely not the major majority, but it was the a very vocal minority who were in leadership roles. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:
And and keep and keep remember when um to kind of put this all into perspective, you know, a lot of those like career uh military folks probably had been working their entire life to get to where they had, right? Where they were where they were. And we come along and um like it was the day Demanding rights, demanding rights ability to do everything just like that. So the day that I I had to go get my ID, right? And it was the first day. And yeah, I you know, I had been going around the entire military base to go to the visitors’ entrance because even though we were married, I couldn’t go for uh in the entrance that was across from our house because I wasn’t recognized as a military uh as a military spouse, right? So the first day I could get my ID, I was standing in line, like I had the first appointment of the day. And when those assholes couldn’t figure out how to use their fucking computers, oh I think on purpose, quite frankly, because they weren’t paying attention. Um, or well, it’s not even voluntold, it’s like they were they were purposely forgetting or like conveniently forgetting how to do things. Wow. Um, they got a call from the White House because we were connected to an organization that was looking out for families like us. And he got shit for it because he went back to class. Good and bad. Yeah, it’s like good and bad. Wait, did I hear that the the White House called for you?
David:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, they probably did. And also, I think it’s homophobic that you made me go around back for so many years. So, how about that? Give me, give me, I want front door service. I want and I want Obama to call Obama call. Did you text Obama about how that happened? You shot him a WhatsApp and you’re like, hey, bro.
SPEAKER_06:
We had someone who was working in the White House who was watching out for that day. But you know, quite frankly, it’s like the it it it it’s totally obvious how they have blinders on to their their privilege because you know, every single day, Thomas was in a class with what, you know, like 10 people, right, for your language. And every day at lunch, all the spouses would go in and meet their spouses over the gate next to their classroom, and they would have something on post. Thomas had to come through the gate. I had to go out. He had to leave post and and meet me in my car parked on the park in a sidelot somewhere so that we could go get something to eat somewhere else. Um we didn’t get any, we didn’t get any like money for housing at the beginning. Um, I didn’t have healthcare. I it was a lot. And yeah, you definitely feel like a second-class citizen.
David:
Yeah. So you got to be at the speaking of Obama, you got to be at the White House during the kind of famous like Obama lighting the White House. Like, please tell us about that experience because that that that to me as a gay person growing up when I did was like so monumental. It’s such an like it was such a big deal that this guy was like, yeah, we’re gonna, we’re gonna, we’re gonna outwardly and visibly say this and connect to this.
SPEAKER_04:
Well, let me add, first of all, fucking finally, it shouldn’t take words in the first place. Yeah, right, especially with a with that president, because he believed it.
David:
Of course, he lied when they said one man, one woman. Of course he did.
SPEAKER_04:
We all knew he played the he played the political game to get elected, and I get it, but fucking and we’re thankful that he got elected.
SPEAKER_06:
Yes, totally. But and and you know, even before we were. Yeah, even even though we we so we were there, and we’ll get to that in a second with the with the pride uh colors on the outside of the building. But we because we were part of that organization that was so connected to the White House and the and the Department of Defense, um, we had the ability to take tours very often for of the White House. Like we did the Christmas tour, we got to see Michelle Obama and hear all the gays in the room just go collectively once you walk in the room.
David:
The gay guy it is a recognizable sound for sure.
SPEAKER_06:
It was amazing. But we we got to take my parents to the White House, and you know, you you go through the visitors’ entrance and you’re downstairs, and you know, for the parts that you can actually get into the White House on those tours, it’s not it’s not that big. It actually feels kind of small once you actually get to it. Yeah, the White House is tiny. It’s a yeah, yeah. The I mean the West Wing is like a completely separate part of the not a McMansion.
Gavin:
It is so old school, not at all.
SPEAKER_06:
Yeah, so you you go in through the go you go through the downstairs, and then there’s this massive mar like marble staircase that takes you upstairs to the main uh room. And I could being a musician and being a choral person, I could hear singing. And this was during pride, right? So I don’t remember what year exactly this was, but I just remember my ear just like I didn’t care about the China Room, uh you know, the mural room, the blue. I didn’t care about any of that shit. Is there a China room? Yeah, no, it’s where they put all of the dishes. So I think we’ll stop it. It’s the Asian room. No, it’s where they put all the dishes. The Asian room exists. So I like bolted upstairs, and it was the gay men’s chorus of of of DC singing in the halls of the White House. And I don’t remember anything else. I was literally standing next to the JFK painting, like listening to the painting, you know, and and and and I just remember all I can remember is like I’m accepted. This is this is this is my reality, this is my truth inside the most important one of the most important buildings in the world. Yeah. And um that was amazing. So then to come back the night that Dome was officially like had been announced, marriage equality had been announced in the E. The Windsor decision.
SPEAKER_04:
Was it the Edie Windsor?
SPEAKER_06:
Yeah, that was the Edie Windsor. Yeah. So we like bolted from Baltimore to DC, and we got there pretty early because the the pictures most people have are like, it’s dark out, the lights are really bright. We were there, like you could barely see the lights on the building. We were there so quick. Yeah. Um, but we won’t trade that night for anything, I don’t think. I mean, it was just such an amazing, emotional, powerful moment.
SPEAKER_04:
Yeah, so we had we were living in Baltim Baltimore, Maryland at the time, because I was stationed at Fort Meade, which is just between Baltimore and Washington, DC. And and we just jumped on the train that night because we knew some of our friends would be there, and we had heard that the lighthouse was sorry, the White House was going to be lit up in in the rainbow colors. Yeah, and we showed up with our two young children. Um, and I think later found out that that was also the moment that Michelle Obama had walked outside of the White House to be off to the side. Um because the press, the press were there kind of recording everything. But she was outside of the White House with her children at the same time witnessing the same exact event.
David:
That’s pretty amazing. And so so speaking of your children, you your parents like tell tell tell us about how you got your kids, other than Obama made you uh have children because you know he made everyone gay, so he made everyone have parents.
SPEAKER_04:
There is legislation that requires that all men become gay. We have criminalized straight. Correct. Uh, and then you are therefore required to get married and have as many children as possible. Correct. Um to do the same. What year was it? You know the details. I don’t know.
SPEAKER_06:
Well, uh, we started we started in 2014 trying to build a family, and we started with private adoption, and we had a really unfortunate event um with the uh birth mother that we were uh matched with and that child who we still say is our first child. She was born premature. Her name was Emma, and uh, you know, she still lives in our heart as our first our first little girl. Um so that that was really difficult, and that was a lot of grief and loss that we had to deal with. But um, you know, we kind of we we picked up, we moved on, and we found foster care is really the place for us to move forward because at the time we were on a military salary and it was difficult. We had just spent a ton of money on a private adoption that didn’t happen. Um, but we still wanted to start a family. So we reached out to the local um uh foster care program in Baltimore. And you know, once we got through the trainings and the background checks and the house visits and all those things that we needed to do, that part takes a really fucking long time.
Gavin:
Now, once you’re real preparation for parenting, though, too. And yeah, and and being able to come out of the gate knowing what you’re doing.
SPEAKER_06:
And in my argument, is that you know, most families don’t have that it’s as a right. You know, it’s the foster families that you have to go that extra mile. Yeah, good for good reasons.
SPEAKER_04:
For one reason. But once we finished all of that training, nonstop. It was oh wow, because we lived in the city of Baltimore every single day. He would get multiple phone calls from saying, hey, we have a child in need, this is their information. And for the longest time, you kept saying no.
SPEAKER_06:
Yeah, I mean, there was like I think 2,500 kids in the program at Baltimore in that small number.
SPEAKER_04:
It used to be tens of thousands. Yeah. Talk about systemic races.
David:
And there’s something very overwhelming also about the first, you’re just kind of like, I don’t know what I should how I should be filtering this, I don’t know what I’m looking for. I have to make decisions on things that I have to decide what sort of ailments and ages and races and all the things that we just have to somehow decide. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06:
Yeah. And and and honestly, and I had to do it by myself because Thomas was uh, for the most part, was always in a position at in the military where he couldn’t take a phone call without literally um having everyone in the room have to put down everything they were doing and step away from their computers. Well, to be fair, you couldn’t bring any electronic devices into the building. So that was the real reason. I would have to call a line in the NSA to get him, you know.
unknown:
Yeah.
David:
And you knew that Big Brother If I’m being honest.
Gavin:
I mean, talk about a power play. Yeah, that’s a power play. But also knowing Big Brother is monitoring abs literally every single word. But when I mean when you were doing something, something like that, how facetious are you being that you you simply couldn’t take any private phone calls in the office, right?
SPEAKER_04:
No, no, literally. I could I couldn’t. Okay. There I did have some limited access online, depending on because wait, you you mean that’s a place where you’re supposed to take classified documents?
SPEAKER_06:
Yeah. Classified documents are supposed to stay.
SPEAKER_04:
Right.
David:
Please don’t throw shade to our real president who’s actually in charge of the military right now if you don’t already know that. Yeah, no, seriously, right?
SPEAKER_04:
So, no, I was I was working at the NSA, and you can’t bring, I you know, I couldn’t bring my Apple Watch in. You can’t bring any electronic devices. Sure. So he was fielding, basically fielding these phone calls from the city of Baltimore saying, hey, we’ve got this child in need, and he kept saying no, because you know, we didn’t know what we had discussed certain things that we were okay with and certain things that we weren’t okay with. But you know, to be able to to have to make that decision on your own was tough. But you know, after a dozen or if not more of times of him saying no, I finally said, if it just feels right, let’s just say yes. Because at some point you need to say yes, because it might just be fostering for a couple days, a couple weeks, you never know. So he did. Um, we had a foster child show up like 45 minutes later. Yeah, no job. Wow. No job. Like we’ve got a kid in need, can you so keep in mind?
SPEAKER_06:
Yes, they show up. So keep in mind we had been waiting for a child like and preparing for a child to come into our home for years, years. Like we had prepared with like a crib and dresser and all these things we thought we needed to prepare for it, but you’re never really prepared until it actually happens. Sure. Yeah. And so when they called and are like, and finally I was like, you know what? I’m gonna say yes, and literally 45 minutes later, a knock on the door, a lady with a a baby in a um in a car seat and has us sign a paper and leaves.
Gavin:
Shit. That is oh I feel I feel awful, I feel awfully off, I feel awful ridiculous for being astounded by that. But this is a really good thing to share that this I mean, this is a quick exchange that throws you into parenting real fast.
SPEAKER_06:
Yeah, we said instant family.
David:
Yeah, and but sometimes those classes, like I remember taking one at a hospital where they’re like, here’s how to diaper a baby, and you’re you’re diapering like doll, like baby dolls. And I’m like, No, the real yeah, I’m like, no, the real preparation is like try to diaper a fucking alligator with diarrhea. Now now you know how to diaper a child.
SPEAKER_04:
Like no, definitely an octopus trying to do a flip and a twist while spraying diarrhea every part of their body. That was this morning, right?
David:
Yeah, but yeah, so our first came to your front door and dropped off a bait. Well, literally.
SPEAKER_04:
And this was this this this one was a very temporary, only a couple of days.
SPEAKER_06:
We didn’t know that we thought there might have been a chance that it would last longer, but we were okay with you know saying yes. We said yes, so we felt comfortable enough to say yes.
SPEAKER_04:
So, but but then you know, he didn’t stay with us for very long. But then our next two children came the same exact way. We got a phone call, we said yes. Um, four hours later, sorry, four hours later, our first daughter showed up, literally uh no, wait, four days, 45 minutes later, four days old. Yes, after us saying yes. Wow, five, six weeks to the day, I always forget how many weeks, five to six weeks to the day, we get a second phone call from the same type of person saying we have a child in need, but this time we had put our names on the list saying we don’t just want to foster, we want to adopt. So if there is a child who is immediately available for adoption and we just happen to be at on the top of the list, that is our that was our second child who was at the time of the phone call four hours old.
unknown:
Wow.
SPEAKER_04:
Yeah, so I mean we’re first time for the most part, first-time parents in bed on a Friday night, exactly like eight o’clock at night in bed.
Gavin:
Let’s just take on a second. Wow.
SPEAKER_04:
And we get this phone call and they’re like, hey, you know, you’re on this list. Yeah, I mean, we didn’t we didn’t they’re immediately available for adoption. Right. We bolted to the hospital.
SPEAKER_06:
And we didn’t even think about the ramifications, what was going on, because we’d actually been approved for one child in our home. So we had our oldest, you know, sleeping in a crib next to us, and as we’re getting there, we’re like, she can’t go. Oh, she has to stay. Like, what’s gonna happen? And of course, they’re like, Oh, we’ll figure it out. Um, which was fantastic. But yeah, we met, we met, we walked into the hospital likely as her um our second child’s biological mother was probably leaving the hospital.
David:
Wow, which is which is crazy, right? Just that that somehow, if you could just somehow go back and look at that camera, oh man.
SPEAKER_06:
Oh, I I every day it’s something I actually think about a lot because we we’ve been trying to reach out, and because of how she came into care, it’s really difficult to get any information or or track this person down. And you know, for for for Charlotte’s sake, we really, really, really want to be able to say we want that for all of our kids. Yeah, we want it for all of our kids, but definitely for for Charlotte in particular.
Gavin:
Because we have less info. Now, bringing it all together, while you were um uh let’s see, while you during your time in the military, you were a Russian linguist, right? And a Russian specialist. So now are you training all four children to become Russian spies and speak Russian? That already happened.
SPEAKER_04:
That would actually be a really So here’s the thing. Here’s the thing about being a Russian linguist or a linguist in the military of any kind. So if you have a child or just someone in your life who’s like, I don’t know what what I want to do when I graduate high school, uh, and they’re open to the idea of enlisting in the military. I know that’s not for everyone, and that can sound pretty scary. And believe me, it it actually is a little scary the first couple of months. Um there’s a lot of money to be had in this particular type of training. So you you graduate high school, you don’t need a bachelor’s degree if you can score high enough to get into this military language school. They’ll teach you eight, nine, ten hours a day from native uh uh speaking teachers. So it doesn’t, you know, it could be Arabic, it could be Farsi, it could be Russian, it could even be Spanish or French. Um you successfully make it through that training. You don’t have all you have is a high school diploma. You then spend two, maybe three years working at the National Security Agency. Uh you then don’t re-enlist, and you then have the experience and the training and the knowledge to become a private contractor, working, you know, for some age some group that’s just based outside of Washington, D.C. And you’re what, 24 years old? And you’re now working as a private contractor inside the National Security Agency with a top secret clearance, making a minimum of$150,000 a year.
SPEAKER_06:
Wow. Gave in.
David:
Do you remember being 24?
Gavin:
Well, what were the 20s like? Very funny. I think that that is taxpayer money going to good use, though, for sure. With with all of the um faux military porn out there, how realistic and how reflective of that is life in the military?
SPEAKER_06:
Dramatic. I I would say that uh there’s more gay in the military than than than people realize. I love that answer.
David:
Well, speaking of you guys, or no, Thomas, you went to the same linguist school as uh Will and James went to, right? In Monterey, California, of our military dad’s guests a couple uh a couple episodes ago. That’s that’s crazy. Speaking of passing each other in the hallways, I bet you guys at some point pass each other and um look at us now. So moving on, let’s let’s do some some plugs of your own because you guys are now authors, you guys are podcasters. Tell us about the book. Yeah, so we well, we wrote a book. Or we can talk about porn again. I mean, you guys just took a big stop there, and it was like a lot of people. I thought we were gonna go further with the porn question, but well, we could we’re slightly running out of time, but uh I’m happy to just talk about porn for the rest of the day.
Gavin:
How gay is the military? Basically, you were just inferring that how gay is the military?
SPEAKER_04:
No, it’s it’s really gay, especially the Air Force, especially in military intelligence. It’s probably the Air Force is the gayest, then the Navy, then the Army, then the Marines.
David:
Wow, you just wanted and he got it. He got it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:
So now transitioning from military porn to a kid’s book. Okay.
David:
Um about great.
SPEAKER_04:
I mean, we we have for a very long time wanted to write a book because our story is not that our story is unique. Um it’s not unique to gay or queer parents, but it’s unique to parents in general. Um, so we at first wanted to write kind of just a more general book, but then we came across this uh publisher uh uh who does a brand of books called a kids book about. So the company is called a kids co and they write basically the series a kid’s book about and then whatever the topic is. And uh we had been a huge fan of theirs forever, like even before we pitched the idea to their CEO and co-founder. Uh on the shelf behind me, I had like 20 different copies of their books. Um, not entirely intentional for the interview, but it definitely helped because he he pointed them out. He’s like, Oh, I see you already have all of our books. Um, but we noticed that they didn’t have this particular topic. I mean, they have their very first book was a kid’s book about racism. Yeah. But they have a kid’s book about being transgender, non-binary, a kid’s book about water, um, a kid’s book about grief and and anxiety, loss, anxiety, every anything you could think of, but they didn’t have to be a lot of people.
David:
Hard things are generally hard things to talk about, or people don’t know how to talk about four kids.
SPEAKER_06:
Exactly. Their their point is to start the conversation between grown-ups and children because children are ready to talk about the difficult things.
David:
I’ve been right, I’ve been writing for a preschool television show, and we have for many seasons, we wrote, we’ve written three seasons of the show, many seasons been like, we want to do an episode on death, and the network was always like, no, no, no, like it’s just too much, too much. But finally, the the the star of the show was like, we’re doing it this season. And we did it for that exact reason because we’re like, these kids are experiencing death in their life, so why not figure out a way to talk about it? No.
SPEAKER_04:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we so to I guess to finally get to the title of our book, we wrote a kid’s book about gay parents. Um, and it’s basically a story of our you from our unique perspective about how why we wanted to become parents, how we became parents. Um and you know, it actually we’ve even shared this book with other gay and queer parents, and it’s not necessarily written for them, right? So it’s a great book for I I would say it’s a great book for anyone, but I think we took the perspective and the kind of the angle that this is a book for people who don’t know what gay parents are, or they don’t have any gay parents in their lives.
Gavin:
Yeah. And so often you just gotta have the language and have some story and some context to be able to share and and pass on.
David:
Do they have a kid’s book about eating hot pockets and watching Black Mirror in your basement by yourself? Because if not, I could write that one.
SPEAKER_06:
You should get started then. Okay. Well, but but what’s really cool about the book is that, you know, to say go off of what Thomas said is that we we actually got invited into one of our kids’ classrooms to read the book. And you know, with everything that’s going on.
SPEAKER_04:
Wait, let’s back that up. We were invited into a second grade classroom by our teacher. In a public school. But we live in the club. Not in Florida.
SPEAKER_06:
No, and and with everything that’s going on right now, it’s kind of like amazing that you know, pockets of sanity still exist. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but you know, we were we were really nervous going into it because we’ve we’ve kind of got this thing in the back of our head that’s like, oh, you know, there’s gonna be some kid of a conservative family that’s gonna go back. They’re gonna go and tell their parents, and their parents are gonna like go ballistic on us. And I have to tell you, we were reading the book, and I think it was really good for our daughter who was there. She was really proud, kind of honored that this was about her and our family and how we we we exist. But the questions and the engagement from those second graders was so phenomenal. I mean, I know I looked over at Thomas at one point, like a tear is starting to come down his eye. Oh, I’m sure. Because even the kids who I knew came from a more conservative family who might be considered, you know, their family a redneck or something like that, they were so they were clapping and smiling and asking these amazing questions about our family and giving us advice on how we should present the book at the at the bookstore that following that following weekend. And you know, it just gave us a great amount of pride that that is the future if we allow it to happen.
David:
I’m so glad that your indoctrination of those kids were successful. I mean, that’s really proud of it. I know. I’m really proud of you guys.
SPEAKER_06:
And then, of course, we even got like, you know, one of the one of the kids in the class went home and told their parents, and and I got a text message like, hey, this is so-and-so’s father. Can we come to your book reading this weekend? And you know, those were the those are just amazing, those are the connections that we want to have. Those are the types of conversations that need to be had. Because Grace or Charlotte or whoever are any of our children have been in these classrooms with these kids now for two or three years. And they know that they have a daddy and a papa, but that’s about all our second graders are gonna tell their kids, you know, their their friends. We wanted to start the conversation about well, what actually is the same about our family. And we talk about things that you know, a Vermont kids would know. We had we put Vermont maple syrup on our pancakes, and um, you know, we wear flannel because we’re from Vermont. I mean, those are the things that were connections for these kids. Um, but I think if we can have these conversations in more places, sure. It brings what we call acceptance through visibility. If you can present yourself and be um uh uh um out there and have representation for you and your family and greater visibility always is going to help. It’s it’s going to make it easier eventually for others, both in our community and outside our community, to understand where they fit and be their authentic selves.
SPEAKER_04:
No, I representation matters no matter what it is, where it is, and when it is.
Gavin:
Even if it scares other folks, but yes, being as visible as we possibly can to help dispel fears and help people understand because so often they’re just afraid of what they don’t understand. I can’t wait to eventually have our shit together on our podcast and have a store where we can sh uh sell your book as well because I want to help promote that for sure. And then, of course, David, we’ll make room for your book about Hot Pockets and um.
David:
Yes, I can’t wait. All right. Well, thank you guys. We’re out of time, unfortunately. It always happens where I’m like, oh no, I have so much more to ask. But everyone out there, please buy the book, a kid’s book about gay parents. Please subscribe to their new podcast. They’re in the podcast racket called Becoming Dads. And thank you guys so much for joining us. It was really fun.
Gavin:
Thank you.
SPEAKER_06:
Thanks so much, guys. Yeah, thank you.
Gavin:
Keeping with my theme of the entire episode, My Something Great is summer camp. We were driving up, just about to drop them off, and I was starting to feel like, oh God, I am gonna miss them. And I mean, I do love my kids and I I do want them around, and I miss doing stuff with them. And then they started fighting in the back and negotiating about what prizes they need for going away to fucking summer camp and being obnoxious little entitled shits. And I’m like, get out the car and thank God. Squealing as you peel out. Well, absolutely. Just we didn’t even stop. We just pushed them out, and I am great. That something great is summer camp. How about you, David?
David:
Um, so this week, so my son is in a like, you know, a three-year-old soccer class, which is just barely, barely organized chaos from really adorable. Yeah, it’s adorable, but it is like these poor coaches are trying to be like, hey, kick the ball in the net. And they’re like, my son is doing cartwheels and picking up dirt or whatever. So um they they were doing this game called it was like red light, yellow light, right? Where it was like the teacher would say red, they were like kicking a ball and they would say red light, they would all have to stop. They would say yellow light, you have to go slow, and they would say green light, and you’d have to go, right? But then she added this thing where it was blue light. And when she would say blue light, the kids would have to just dance. And that was really fun, and the kids really loved it. Well, my favorite thing in the world was my son. I don’t know where he gets this, it’s so innate in him. But when they say dance, he started doing this like this like dance where it looked like the drunk girl at the bar who found her way up on top of the speaker or onto a stage where she put her hands behind her back and she was just like healing herself. There was just this like stripper from like a really redneck town and a sudden.
Gavin:
Basically, drunk girl.
David:
Yeah, the basic girl at the bar. And it was killing me because all the other kids are just like skipping and kicking, and my there’s my son just like feeling his fucking truth. And it made me laugh so hard. I was like, proud dad there. That is something great for sure. And that’s our show. If you have any comments, suggestions, or general compliments, you can email us at gatriarchspodcast at gmail.com.
Gavin:
Or you can DM us on Instagram. We are at Gatriarchspodcast. On the internet, David is at DavidFm Vaughn everywhere, and Gavin is at GavinLodge at SummerCamp.
David:
Please leave us a glowing five-star review wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for our fresh off-the-press weekly newsletter.
Gavin:
Thanks, and we’ll walk the walk with you next time on another episode of Gatriarchs.
SPEAKER_04:
So here’s the thing. I did not serve during Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. So I’m sure there is much more to this um than what I’m even aware of. But if you when you take a bunch of basically military nerds, the gay military numbers.
Gavin:
Okay.
SPEAKER_04:
Well, two that there’s two parts to this. The gayest part of the military is the intelligence branch, I guess. I mean, no surprise that. We’re just smarter. We’re just smarter.
David:
100%.
SPEAKER_04:
Um so you know, going to school at the Defense Language Institute in Monterey, California, you’re on this tiny little basically campus of hundreds of service members from all of the different branches, four and a half branches, right? Because the Coast Guard sort of counts and they’re there.
David:
Wow. But Coast Guard shade.
SPEAKER_04:
Well, they’re not the Coast Guard’s not a part of the Department of Defense. And Space Force didn’t hadn’t been born. I’m I’m so old that Space Force didn’t exist. So here’s the thing the military requires that you work out every single day. Uh-huh. And when you’re in at basic training, your like calorie intake is probably significantly less than where you were at before. You’re working out all the time. You’re in, you have to you have to take showers with everyone else. Um, the the one downside to that for me was that there were significantly a significant number of really hot guys that you were naked around all the time.
Gavin:
How how do you not walk around with a fucking boner the entire time?
SPEAKER_04:
It must be fortifying in the channel. You’re just exhausted. You’re just absolutely exhausted. But the problem for me is that at the time I had to wear contacts or glasses. And when you’re going through basic training, you can’t wear contacts. You have to wear glasses. So if you’re like you’re going to take a shower, it’d be a little weird to be going in the shower with your glasses so you can see everyone’s dicks. Yeah. Um, but when when you got out, there was always this one guy, and he was probably like 18 or 19, really buff, like real thick, really big. And he’d always like just hang out in the locker area, like in the bathroom area. So I would always make it a point to hang out right there next to him.
David:
Just just for some fellowship. As long as I could. Some fellowships. Yeah.
SPEAKER_04:
And I there were several moments where he’s like, he’d go find me later after the fact. And he’s like, Hey, do you have any aspirin or ibuprofen? Because you’re not supposed to have stuff like that. And I just for whatever reason did. And I was like, what are you really asking for? Uh-huh. Because I’ve got that too. No, and and this is the type of guy who was like so comfortable and proud of his body and very endowed that he like kind of play around and shake and move, you know, like the the things that you would typically expect, the stereotypical things you would expect to happen in a locker room. He did it.
David:
And you were front row.
Gavin:
And it’s followed up by barn chick a barn bar. Yeah.
David:
Oh, yeah. Gavin, even your sexual references are a hundred years old. I’m okay with that.
Gavin:
I’m I’m okay with that. Everybody knows what I’m talking about, so